Database and Hardware question: SQL Server on VMware and SANs

Glenn Hill

Member
We are currently running E1 811 on SQL Server 2005.
We currently have a dedicated 2 processor (quad-core) box with local for running the Database instance.

However we are seriously considering migrating the SQL Server Instance in a Virtual Server (using VMware) on similar hardware and using a SAN (HP Lefthand) for our disk.

Does anyone have any experience of running JDE on this or similar configuration?
 
If you search this forum for "VMWare" or "virtual" you'll see a large number of posts asking questions like this.

For the most part, people don't recommend running your production systems on a VM since I/O (disk and network) is usually the biggest performance hit going from physical to virtual. Some people could probably point you to tuning tips to minimize the impact if you really want to put PD on a VM.

It's great for development and test purposes though. I have several of my clients and my internal lab running this way.
 
[ QUOTE ]
We are currently running E1 811 on SQL Server 2005.
We currently have a dedicated 2 processor (quad-core) box with local for running the Database instance.

However we are seriously considering migrating the SQL Server Instance in a Virtual Server (using VMware) on similar hardware and using a SAN (HP Lefthand) for our disk.

Does anyone have any experience of running JDE on this or similar configuration?

[/ QUOTE ]

IMHO:

San = good

vmware for a production database server = bad.

Make sure your san is tuned for maximum database performance. A SAN utilizies disk storage more efficiently that muliple servers with excess capacity on their local storage.

As Ken said, databases are very I/O intensive, so sharing hardware with other applications will limit the performance of your database server as well as bog down the other applications currently running on the SAN. If this is for test, then go for it. No point in having beefy hardware for a test. If for production, then you are not going to have an optimal configuration.

- Gregg
 
SAN = Bad! I must prefer SSD technologies such as FusionIO over SAN. There is just something that warms my heart about measuring disk latency on micro-seconds instead of milliseconds. Using SSD though does require other options for HA such as database mirroring or stand-by server.
 
Virtualization is coming of age. I've actually put together virtualization in a production environment and seen performance within 90% of the physical hardware. Given the other benefits associated with virtualization, I'd say this is time for VMWare to go production.

Oracle is also stating this. Oracle VM is a production-ready platform - VMWare is also production-ready as is Hyper-V and Citrix Xen.

I published a benchmark comparing the different platforms versus physical hardware at last years Quest Conference in Vegas. Oracle even gave me an "approval" since they had seen similar performance differences in their lab (but had decided not to publish !)

So, times have moved on. You're on the right track, vmware ESXi with a very fast SAN will be a good architecture. SSD is absolutely the fastest storage solution - but iSCSI over 10GbE is becoming the fastest way to get to that storage !

Lastly - theres also the discussion of true Cloud ERP. I don't think anyone has realistically proposed this yet - but Oracle has made Peoplesoft and eBiz available in the cloud - but not yet E1. I'm creating some E1 templates in my spare time (!) for the cloud - and plan to test them as soon as Oracle 11g becomes available there. I believe that the future will definitely be companies utilizing cloud technologies for business systems, including ERP.

Theres a lot of room for lots of discussion here. The fact is that if you're serious about setting up your production environment in such a way, then you really ought to stress test it as you'll find very few companies have gone that exact route. Your choice in hardware architecture, SAN architecture and Software architecture will all determine your performance - and nobody is going to have the EXACT same choices as you'll make. Call a good stress-testing consultant to help you out ! It'll pay for itself....
 
Ok – I’ll debate


Virtualization is coming of age. I've actually put together virtualization in a production environment and seen performance within 90% of the physical hardware. Given the other benefits associated with virtualization, I'd say this is time for VMWare to go production.

>>>>> You just stated the limitation, 90% of the physical. And that is in the ideal scenario. If you have a hefty load of other I/O intensive apps on the vmware hosts, your performance will tank. In the real world, companies are mixing and matching applications on the virtual hosts. The infrastructure guys aren’t tuning the hosts, they are just tossing stuff on them and v-motioning the servers around willy nilly.

Oracle is also stating this. Oracle VM is a production-ready platform - VMWare is also production-ready as is Hyper-V and Citrix Xen.

>>>>> assuming you have a dedicated host. We set up three OVM hosts for our 9.0 environment, but the ONLY stuff going on those hosts were JDE servers. We are using our Exadata (Sunfire 6300 server, dedicated disk storage, incredibly fast 40 gb switches) for the database. OVM was definitely not ready for prime time when we installed it. We spent the summer beating it in to submission to get it stable.

So, times have moved on. You're on the right track, vmware ESXi with a very fast SAN will be a good architecture.

>>>>> there are lots of different SANs out there, there are lots of ways to configure a SAN. Do you configure it with big disk drives? Or do you configure it with lots of spindles? If your infrastructure team is trying to please everyone, they may not make the right choice for a SAN for a database server.

SSD is absolutely the fastest storage solution - but iSCSI over 10GbE is becoming the fastest way to get to that storage !

>>>> SSD is cool, but that isn’t what the original poster asked about. iSSCSI over 10 GB is great. Disk drives over 40 GB is even better.



Lastly - theres also the discussion of true Cloud ERP. I don't think anyone has realistically proposed this yet - but Oracle has made Peoplesoft and eBiz available in the cloud - but not yet E1. I'm creating some E1 templates in my spare time (!) for the cloud - and plan to test them as soon as Oracle 11g becomes available there. I believe that the future will definitely be companies utilizing cloud technologies for business systems, including ERP.

>>>>> The future is here Jon – someone already commercialized JDE on a public cloud. We built JDE 9.0 on our own private cloud.

Theres a lot of room for lots of discussion here. The fact is that if you're serious about setting up your production environment in such a way, then you really ought to stress test it as you'll find very few companies have gone that exact route. Your choice in hardware architecture, SAN architecture and Software architecture will all determine your performance - and nobody is going to have the EXACT same choices as you'll make. Call a good stress-testing consultant to help you out ! It'll pay for itself....

>>>> I think I recall seeing a good stress testing CNC architect advertising his availability on the JDE opportunities forum recently. Some guy that used to work for JDE and lives in Jacksonville as I seem to recall…….

- Gregg
 
two more points to add to the discussion.

The exadata has a crazy amount of cache. We can host most of our database in the cache. So we are esentially getting the benefits of SSD combined with really fast disk performance.

Oracle 11 g R2 is certified with JDE 9.0. We made that a condition of our accepting our Exadata.

- Gregg
 
I apologize, I'm going to hijack this thread somewhat - but I wanted to go over something Gregg just stated, something that has been a bane of my existence for more than 13 years...

[ QUOTE ]

The exadata has a crazy amount of cache. We can host most of our database in the cache. So we are esentially getting the benefits of SSD combined with really fast disk performance.


[/ QUOTE ]

The number of times I've heard this argument. Its the argument that hardware companies make when they want to sell something more profitable....

I have a Seagate "hybrid" Momentus in my mac - I just fitted it the other week. Its a 32Gb RAM and 7200 RPM 500Gb drive. According to seagate, I "essentially get the benefits of SSD combined with really fast disk performance".

Now, in real world testing - I'm glad I made the change for my personal use. My Mac is running a little faster - but predominantly because I've gone from a 200Gb 7200rpm drive to a 500gb 7200rpm drive.

But is it really as fast as SSD? I mean, c'mon - putting the cache directly on the disk and ensuring it buffers up the data of frequently read data - surely thats going to be within a fraction of a percent of a real SSD.

Anandtech did a comparison between the hybrid HD, a regular drive and a true SSD. The results are here :

http://www.anandtech.com/show/3734/seagates-momentus-xt-review-finally-a-good-hybrid-hdd

Now - if you look carefully, you'll see that the SSD wins pretty much hands-down EVERY time. Certainly the hybrid is faster than a regular drive - but when you compare the factors between SSD and the hybrid, its a pretty huge gap. Especially on write performance.

As Jeremy stated, " There is just something that warms my heart about measuring disk latency on micro-seconds instead of milliseconds". I'd back that up by stating "I'd rather see disk WRITES in nano-seconds rather than milliseconds". Thats the crux that Jeremy was getting at. With JDE, the reads and writes are very, very substantial. JDE talks to the database in a very "chatty" way. Certainly, read performance is one factor - and it certainly SEEMS that its the biggest factor due to the fact that JDE reads more than 90% more than its writes. However, if a WRITE takes too long, then the READ, which is sequential, is going to queue up until that write finishes. Therefore, even though the reads are happening faster, the spread of WRITES occurring against the database are going to dramatically affect the performance of that database.

I published a whitepaper back in 1999 while I was at JDE (its available on my website). We evaluated an SSD on our standard test. Back then, SSD's were $30,000 per Gb at least - so to get one was VERY cool. All we did was place the archive logs onto the SSD - and JDE improved performance by at least 15% instantly.

That was without any tuning. It was a huge eye-opener. For more than 13 years, I've been stating that the incorporation of SSD's in the database architecture will occur. Today, with the new Exadata2 from Oracle - I think that clearly shows the importance of SSD in architecture design.

So, certainly while your Exadata has a lot of cache - its not the same as the Exadata 2. The SSD's make a huge difference.

As for my Mac - well, I'm quite happy having spent $200 and improving performance and disk space. I could have spent $2000 on a true 500Gb SSD - but in MY CASE, I didn't want to spend that kind of money on an older computer. My plan is to purchase a new Macbook Pro (when the quad cores come out) - and at that point go 100% SSD.

Just my 2c. I'll let the thread go back to the original discussion of VMWare now....(!)
 
[ QUOTE ]

So, certainly while your Exadata has a lot of cache - its not the same as the Exadata 2. The SSD's make a huge difference.



[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry - to clarify, we purchased as Exadata 2. Exadata 1 was an HP box. Exadata 2 is a Sun box. We have the Sun flavor.

- Gregg
 
Back
Top