Need feedback on E1 Technology Foundation options...

Hi all,

Somehow we're close in acquiring and implementing Oracle-JDE EnterpriseOne system, anyways i was hoping to get some feedback between IBM's Technology foundation vs Oracle's Technology foundation.

Previous and still supported IBM Technology foundation includes:
[*] DB2 Universal Database Enterprise Edition
[*] WebSphere Application Server
[*] EnterpriseOne Collaborative Portal
[*] and EnterpriseOne Tools.

Oracle's Technology Foundation:
[*] Database 10g Standard
[*] Fusion Middleware consisting of:
<ul type="square"> - Oracle Application Server Java Edition
- Oracle Application Server Portal
- Oracle BPEL Process Manager
- Oracle Business Activity Monitoring
- Oracle Application Server Integration B2B
- Oracle Business Intelligence Discoverer
- Oracle Application Server Single Sign-On
- Oracle Application Server Web Cache [/list][*] and EnterpriseOne Tools.

Can anyone have some insights on its pros and cons?

regards.
KENTOY

Kentoy,

First of all, welcome to the list. That's an interesting first post! Asking about the web component on this forum is kind of like asking a religious question. I personally worship at the IBM alter because that is what I started out with. If you are purchasing, that gives you some flexibility. Do you have Websphere or Oracle running at your company? If yes, stick with what you know. If no, I would advise you to go with the Oracle Red stack. Oracle claims that they will support the IBM blue stack down the Fusion road, but do you want to really trust that statement? If I had a clean slate to start with, I'd stick with one vendor. That's my $.02, I'll be curious to see what the other pundents come back with.

Gregg Larkin
Praxair North American System Admin
JDE CNC and Security, Websphere, Tidal, Princeton Softech

We're also evaluating the Blue Stack (IBM) vs. Red Stack (Oracle). The IBM stack has been in use for many years with plenty of real customers using it. Oracle education classes for installation/configuration seem to reference the IBM stack, too.

We currently don't use web server, and we thought it would be best to use the Oracle stack -- all else being equal, since Oracle has stated that future E1 releases will be optimized first for the Oracle stack, and then maybe later for the IBM stack. I have been having next to an impossible time finding any training on setting up web server using OAS. Also, I don't think that many customers are using the Oracle stack, so we'd probably end up on the "bleeding edge" of the Red Stack.

At this point, I'm actually seriously considering going with the IBM stack due its track record (# of customers using it) and the training availability.

If you find out any other information, please share it on JDEList, as I know I would be interested.

KENTOY,

the IBM 'Blue Stack' actually comes with many more products than are typically listed. I do recall that most of the extra stuff is packages with the portal such as the LDAP Server, SameTime and Quick Place.

That being said the most important thing to choose first is your database. Once you've decided the database then you can move on to the application server and the portal. I can give you hundreds of articles arguing in support of one product over the other but all products are equally capable when it comes right down to it.

What you really need to consider is the corporate direction. Are you already using IBM DB2 or Oracle Database? IF so then continue using what you're using.

If you choose to go with an IBM Database then you choose the 'Blue Stack' and you are licensed only for 'Blue Stack'. Vice versa for Oracle DB and the Red Stack.

Now the comparisons......both DB2's are equally capable. You can more easily obtain ORacle DB skill sets but they do cost more than DB2 UDB skill sets so once again this is a wash. My personal preference is for the Oracle DB.

Now on the J2EE side here's where things shake up. Webshere is an infinitely powerful jaugernaught capable of all things but the question is do you need all things? WAS does take a little longer to setup than OAS.

WAS 6 comes with the Apache 2.0 engine while OAS 10 coomes with the Apache 1.3.26 engine. There is a HUGE difference here especially for a WAN. The Apache 2.0 engine allows for built in compression and caching..........something that OAS doesn't come with or currently support. However, that being said you can simply purchase a hardware device to compensate if using OAS.

OAS has easier vertical clustering support....takes about 3 seconds where as with WAS it takes about an hour for a basic vertical cluster.

WAS is more scalable and has more parameters that you can tune. Horizontal clustering is also better with WAS than OAS. WAS also allows for in place memory fail over between cluster members so 'YES' you can walk over and unplug the server and everything moves over to the other horizontally clustered server without a hiccup.

The learning curve for OAS is shorter than WAS but WAS has more things that you can do (not that you want to).

Patch management is much easier in OAS than WAS as well.

In terms of Portals the WPS (Websphere Portal Server) is again a big beast but very robust and powerful. OPS is very easy to use but lacks some of the features that WPS has.

In terms of support the Red Stack (OAS and OPS)has been used at JDE for 11 months. The 'Red Stack' as an offering has been available for about 5 months. However, JDE has supported customers using the Oracle DB since around 1997 and regardless of when the full Red Stack was available many customers have always been on Oracle DB.

The Blue stack has been around and used for more than 60 months (since 2002). However, JDE did not begin supporting DB2 UDB for Linux, Unix and Windows until around 2002 so there are significantly less customers using the IBM DB2 UDB for LUW. There are however a gazillion customers using the DB2/400 (DB2 UDB for iSeries).

I've worked with both the complete set of Blue Stack and Red Stack products and I prefer the Oracle DB, the IBM Websphere Application Server and like the Portal products equally. However, once the next version of the Oracle Application Server is released that is built on the Apache 2.0 kernel it'll be very hard to choose WAS over OAS for small to medium size installations.

Colin

How many users in the deployment?

How many Sites?

How many countries?

What's the connectivity between sites?

Do you currently use any of the products you mentioned?

What languages are you deploying?

We have also been evaluating Red Stack/Blue Stack and Collin is correct that Blue Stack does come with alot more functionality than listed by Oracle. Our initial test do show blue stack to be faster but harder to install with some patches to apply vs. red stack. If you choose blue stack and decide to use the Portal application by aware Oracle currently does not support DB2's V5R4 release with no information given on when (this includes Portal 5.0.2 and 5.1). I went through IBM's Portal 6.0 demo and found it also has some nice features in comparison to Oracle Portal.

The other applications in Red Stack (Bpel and Bam) are imbedded in OAS and not WAS. If you currently run ORacle products , keep it and same goes for DB2 .

Certainly lots of choices and great feedback so far. I would offer that you should consider the long-term manageability of any combination of database and web application servers.

If you choose oracle as your database, it comes with a very capable grid manager and that has direct hooks into OAS. So you can monitor and manage both things at once.

We use Websphere 5 here and I would comment that it seems robust, but really feels like overkill for the JDE web application. Patching it also sucks. If Oracle's patch management is smoother, its something to consider as well.

Good luck. Once you get all those pieces working, you can really plunge into the abyss of getting the JDE web application running well.

Morglum

Okay,

before everyone goes NUTS on this just remember that this study was funded by Oracle:

http://www.crimson-consulting.com/marketing/experience/study/Crimson_AppSvrManagement_Study.pdf

I wasn't gonna post it due to that fact and it's very critical off WAS - but WAS still owns the Application Server Market.

I'll post a pro Websphere article if I can find it in my 100's of GB of stuff.

Colin

The answer, as anyone worth their salt will tell you, depends on the makeup of your IT department. Neither of the stacks make any sense if you are predominantly a Microsoft house for example !

Evaluate your internal policy and strategic IT direction. If you find you are an IBM house, then the blue stack works - if you are tending towards Unix or other Oracle products, then the redstack is ideal - if you're a microsoft shop, then you can piecemeal the stacks to get the right product you need.

Personally, I like the scalability of oracle - although it is the most expensive to maintain, I like the reliability of DB2/400 and I like the ease of use of Microsoft SQL Server. They all can be architected to perform as fast as you need, and they can all support 1,000 users, again, with a good architecture.

As far as performance of the JAS servers is concerned, I think its a big freaking joke - especially the "independent" studies that are made. With the right Java engine and Tomcat, you can outperform any of the "official" platforms. Of course, getting JDE to support it might not occur !

So, please evaluate internal policy first - then, once you work out the technology, evaluate the cost of the stack versus what you actually need to get up and running.

Hi all,

Just got a reply from oracle and quote "The Oracle Technology Foundation (OTF) is not free with JDE EnterpriseOne licenses. It is a a separately licensed product. The Oracle components with OTF are restricted use for JDE E1 applications only."

regards,
KENTOY

The same was/is the case with the IBM "Blue Stack". It has always been licensed separately. The last time I checked the pricing of both stacks is the same.

If you are already licensed for the IBM stack and are considering a move I would definitely negotiate. You may be able to get the Red stack as a like-for-like exchange. I have heard of some clients who have arranged this. I am not sure if this is available to all exisitng IBM stack clients. The cynic in me says that it probably depends on your profile with Oracle (how many seats you currently license, how strategic you are from their sales perspective, etc.)