OAS 11G and Weblogic news flash

[gregglarkin]

Heard something interesting yesterday from an unnamed Oracle employee. Oracle 11G will be delayed a bit. They are going to make some major changes. They are going to dump OC4J in 11G. In it's place will be Weblogic. He didn't mention anything about the Oracle portal, but that would be a logical assumption as well. This was not a formal announcement, but it comes from an inside source. Should be interesting to follow.


On a different note, for those on the fence trying to decide whether to use Websphere or OAS for their application server, I have an opinion. OAS. It is a much more comprehensive product, is very configurable, and has a lot more logging information than websphere. A lot. The one caveat, if you are setting up a high availibility application server farm with OAS, make sure you have, or budget for, an Oracle database cluster. The product comes with O-lite, which is OK for a test server, but you will need a good metadata repository for your farm, especially if you use the farm for more than just the JDE presentation layer. If you plan on setting up the SOA suite and BPEL (which is the foundation of Oracle Fusion), you will need an Oracle database for your metadata repository.

Gregg

 

[jdel6654]

Wow, I guess I was completely wrong about this.

JDE on Weblogic

 

[gregglarkin]

Yoiu weren't wrong, but you will need to be patient. First they need to integrate weblogic into OAS, then we need to wait for the JDE service pack to support it, again. By the way, anyone who believes the crap about Fusion supporting websphere is in for a big surprise. Yea, they will sort of support it, but Fusion and Fusion Middleware are designed for OAS. OAS is designed for an Oracle database, it doesn't support MS SQL. That's how Oracle is going to force websphere and MS SQL out of the way....

 

[jdel6654]

I thought you just said your source said OC4J would be ~replaced~.

I pointed out that link because I took the position that Oracle Corp would start putting the emphasis on Weblogic (and JDE on Weblogic). Several jdelist'ers disagreed with that.

I think JDE on Weblogic (er, I mean OAS-WebLogic) will happen sooner rather than later.

I guess I don't understand the linkage of OAS to Oracle DB. There is nothing I have seen in previous releases of OAS that required an Oracle database. I have done a handful of OAS installs and none has required Oracle DB. Help me understand that.

 

[gregglarkin]

My source said that weblogic would replace OC4J.

When you installed OAS, what did you use for your meta data repository? The meta data repository can be file based (for certain components) or database based. If database based, it needs to be on an Oracle database, MS SQL is not supported. An OAS box that is used for the presentation layer for JDE probably does not have a lot of changes to the meta data. An OAS box for the SOA suite will have a lot of metadata changes. A BAM server will be very database dependent. A BPEL server will also hit the database pretty hard. The future of the Fusion application will revolve around the SOA suite and BPEL. SOA and BPEL require OAS and and Oracle database backend. For high availibility, that back end should be clustered with either a RAC database or Oracle FailSafe. We are going the Failsafe route. We will have the Oracle database servers clustered in an active/passive passive/active setup. The meta data repository for SOA will run on server A. BAM and BPEL will run on server B. Servers A and B will be a Microsoft cluster, using Oracle FailSafe to flop back and forth. We won't be a truely highly availible system, but awfully close. If the database flops over to the other cluster node, I'll need to restart some OAS servers, just like I do with the enterprise servers. We can live with a 30 minute outage.

Gregg

 

[jdel6654]

I understand what you are saying, but in summary, I don't think that OAS {b]requires[/b] an Oracle DB. And, I think what you have stated supports that. My OAS ( and WebSphere and WebLogic ) installs have always been file-based repositories.

I would be surprised that many JDE customers are using a database to retain the metadata repository. This was true with Websphere (even though IBM recommended a DB2 repository). I think customers will continue to be use file-based repositories with OAS. There is nothing wrong with using a DB, its just that most JDE customers don't see the value. [Other contributors, please feel free to contradict me]. Also, we are running the SOA suite (10.1.3.x) and there isn't an Oracle db.

The question of Oracle DB lock-in is a different subject. I would be curious to know if your source said that 11G requires that the metadata repository will have to be in a database. I would be really surprised if that were the case.

The only way I think high availability with JDE will be achieved will be when your session can be replicated between OAS servers. True session failover with JDE would be the holy grail. Most web apps I have seen on Weblogic support this feature.

And this would be huge improvement to the web client for the customers fixated on the Citrix fat client.

 

[jstooge]

Earlier versions of both WAS and OAS required the DB components, and you'd be surprised at how many E1 installations are still using older versions of both.

You are correct, with the newer versions of both, you do not need a DB based repository, but as you begin to implement all of the other software based features of both should you go down that route, you will probably start hitting the DB requirements. OAS supports only Oracle DB's, should you need or want that.

You are correct, if a E1 installation only needs to provide the client HTML instances, using either OAS or WAS will not require a RDBMS for the application server portions. However, many of the advanced features of both, if utilized, may be placed on a RDBMS, and as the man from the gas company stated...if you are using OAS, you've only got one choice if you start down that road...and the color of that brick road is red.

 

[jdel6654]

Mr. Stooge,

You have some statements in your post that are conflicting:

"Earlier versions of both WAS and OAS required the DB components"

!=

"You are correct...using either OAS or WAS will not require a RDBMS for the application server portions."

There are no requirements for these components if you use the file-based repositories. I wrote earlier that it is my opinion that most companies using the earlier versions do not use the database repository. They might be installed with the software packs shipped by IBM and Oracle but the installation is under-the-covers and does not require configuration. [My sense was that this was some wishful thinking on the part of the folks licensing the databases.]

...but as you begin to implement all of the other software based features...you will probably start hitting the DB requirements.

I mentioned that I have done other installations of several kinds of web app server products at other companies. My experience is that most of those companies made their decisions on portal, database and ldap servers independent of their ERP platform. These decisions can be influenced but not dictated by ERP products. I would be curious to know 1 feature you know of that absolutely dictates to other JDE CNC guys that the database repository be used instead of a file repository.

...you've only got one choice if you start down that road...and the color of that brick road is red...

Assuming that OC4J is supplanted by Weblogic, why would a company necessarily go down the red brick road now anyway? I've heard this song before with other technologies (eg. Websphere, iSeries, etc.). Vendor lock-in rarely is a certainty.

 

[jstooge]

Can you read and understand English? As I said, and I'll type slowly for you...E-a-r-l-i-e-r v-e-r-s-i-o-n-s o-f W-A-S a-n-d O-A-S r-e-q-u-i-r-e-d a R-D-B-M-S. C-u-r-r-e-n-t v-e-r-s-i-o-n-s i-f u-s-e-d f-o-r E-1 o-n-l-y, d-o n-o-t.

This is the message Gregg was trying to communicate to you as well.

As far as when it is required, let's just leave your post to what it is...your "opinion" and "experience" is only in file based usage. Too many other instances and clients using DB repositories to even get into that conversation.


Sheesh...when did all the instigators decide to go public?

 

[jdel6654]

I guess I know English well enough not to retain the name Stooge. A lot of English-speaking people consider stooge to be derogatory. De-rog-a-tor-ee = bad.

and I'll type slowly for you...E-a-r-l-i-e-r v-e-r-s-i-o-n-s o-f W-A-S a-n-d O-A-S r-e-q-u-i-r-e-d a R-D-B-M-S.

Apparently, better than you...

In any language you prefer:

[English] No, it did not. [/English]
[Spanish] No, no es requerido. [/Spanish]
[French] Non, il n'est pas exigé. [/French]
[German] Nein ist es nicht erfordert. [/German]

A database (other than those dbs already in F98611) is NOT required to run the web app server. If you disagree, identify the name of the database and its function.

 

[gregglarkin]

[ QUOTE ]
I mentioned that I have done other installations of several kinds of web app server products at other companies. My experience is that most of those companies made their decisions on portal, database and ldap servers independent of their ERP platform. These decisions can be influenced but not dictated by ERP products. I would be curious to know 1 feature you know of that absolutely dictates to other JDE CNC guys that the database repository be used instead of a file repository.

[/ QUOTE ]

You want one feature? SOA. It absolutely, positively, requires an Oracle Database metadata repository. SOA absolutely requires OAS. By good practice, you should use a different OAS server for SOA than you use for the presentation layer of an application, like E1.



[ QUOTE ]
...you've only got one choice if you start down that road...and the color of that brick road is red...

Assuming that OC4J is supplanted by Weblogic, why would a company necessarily go down the red brick road now anyway? I've heard this song before with other technologies (eg. Websphere, iSeries, etc.). Vendor lock-in rarely is a certainty.

[/ QUOTE ]

Weblogic will be PART of OAS in OAS 11G. Weblogic will replace OC4J according to my source. Based on the way that the Boracle consumes companies it takes over, my hunch is that standalone Weblogic will go away, but that's just my professional opinion.

For OAS, you can go one of three directions for the metadata repository. File based, database based using the bundled Olite, or database based using a full release of Oracle Database like Standard or RAC. A lot depends on what you are going to be using it for and what you already have money invested in. Setting up RAC to support a cluster of OAS boxes to just support the JDE web presentaion layer is a massive overkill. But it you have a requirement for high availiblity for a different reason, and have invested in RAC, than why not use it? We'll be investing in a database cluster with Oracle Standard to support SOA. For BPEL, we can use either SQL or Oracle, so why not just stick with Oracle? Likewise, when I set up my farm for the presentation layer for 8.12, I'll probably take advantage of the database cluster.

The Oracle sales reps mentioned to us that we could use Olite for OAS and SOA. Then when we brought in the architects, then told a different story, that we needed to use a full blown copy of the Oracle database. They of course wanted us to use RAC, but we pushed back from that and will use Oracle Standard with Fail Safe. Our pain threshold for a SOA outage does not require the astronomical expense of purchasing and maintaining RAC.


Gregg