One stack, two stack, Red Stack, Blue Stack...please help a user out

This is a bit involved, so give me a moment for setup...
As we have all seen by now, SAP acquired Business Objects (the folks who produce Crystal). Knowing the acrimony between Oracle and SAP, I began asking about the future of Crystal as bundled with JDE. A product manager at Oracle got back with me yesterday, and stated that Crystal would be phased out of the JDE bundle, but support for XI would continue (for existing users) for "a couple of years". I then asked about the product of choice to replace Crystal; the product manager stated that it would be the XML publisher. Said XML publisher was bundled in 8.96, but takes on greater prominence in 8.97 (of course, with app release 8.12 - shazbat!). He then mentioned a couple of interesting points:

* Output in E8.12/8.97 is in XML (with an option for pdf). As a company going to MS SharePoint, that is exciting news)
* "Red Stack" customers would be able to use the XML publisher at no additional charge, while "Blue Stack" customers would likely have to pay an additional licensing fee for the publisher.

At long last, my question: could one of the experts give a thumbnail of the "Red Stack" v "Blue Stack" discussion? My knowledge on this is limited to Red = Oracle, Blue=IBM (and that WebSphere is "Blue Stack" terrirory). Also, what turns a "Blue" Stack "Green"? (The use of Microsoft products?). I have also seen support cases where "Purple" Stack (a mix of WebSphere App Server and OracleAS Portal, for example) is not supported by Oracle.

Quick highlights (OAS):

- Seems to perform faster than WebSphere
- Much easier to run multiple JVM instances of an environment for load balancing, whether it's multiple JVMs (Java Virtual Machines) on the same server or multiple servers
- You have to use Oracle HTTP Server (variant of Apache, roughly 1.3.x)
- You have to use Oracle Portal
- Integrates with Oracle SSO (Single Sign-On)
- Software available for Unix/Linux, Wintel, but not AS/400

For WebSphere:

- Can use MS IIS or IBM HTTP Server (also Apache variant versions, from 1.3.x to 6.x)
- Must instll additional Network Deployment piece if you want WebSphere to manage multiple JVM instances (on the same server="vertical", on different servers="horizontal"). I have seen one client try to use DNS round robin to load balance WebSphere across multiple servers.
- If you want to run your JAS server on the AS/400, this is the only choice

Either product will connect with whatever you use at the back end; it's just a matter of putting in the correct JDBC drivers.

The same flags work to turn features off and on in JAS.INI and JDBJ.INI.

Tuning of the HTTP Server is slightly different for each product. Things like configuring SSL, turning HTTP compression on/off, configuring timeout values, configuring Java heap memory, etc. are different for each product, though the values you need to use are the same (same timeout values, same heap size, same TCP/IP ports).

I'm sure other people will come up with a lot more. Were there some specific comparisons you wanted to look at?

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At long last, my question: could one of the experts give a thumbnail of the "Red Stack" v "Blue Stack" discussion?

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In a thumbnail - "Red Stack" Good. "Blue Stack" Bad.

Resistance is Futile - We are the Oracle. Lower your shields and surrender your ships. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us.

The upcoming Oracle purchase of WebLogics also adds a complication and "purple" color.
Clark

Thank you "Locutus".

You gotta admit, there's an uncanny resemblence to the Borg mentality. Besides, wouldn't Larry look cool with all of that metal hardware hanging off of him?

Wha chu talkin' about.

Everyone knows he ain't the Borg...

He's the TERMINATOR

Now the BIG question...

Oracle talks a good game about keeping WAS alive...has anyone seen an, er, inducement to go Red (rather than stay dead, I mean, blue?)

If one weren't in a rush, I would seriously recommend looking at BEA WebLogic as the app server instead of OAS or WAS.

My experience has been that WAS (while a very good product), is a bit bloated for most medium-size IT shops. WAS 5.x was very hard to cluster and very complicated to manage. I have not worked with WAS 6.x.

I personally have loved OAS for JDE support; but you have to look at the writing on the wall. JDE was (at one time) ported for BEA WebLogic.

BEA WebLogic is kind of the industry standard and is extremely easy to cluster. WebLogic is extremely reliable as well and support is excellent.

My 2 cents.

In my mind, the biggest difference today between using REd and Blue stacks is that Oracle is creating more modules that they are including in the Red Stack that do not have a counterpart in the Blue stack. Take for instance the new XML publisher. If you own the Red Stack, you own the new XML publisher software, while if you own the Blue stack, you have to buy this extra. Oracle will continue to create new software and add to the red stack without giving the blue stack owner's the same.

That was my question...the inducement is in making OAS feature rich, while leaving WAS users to their own devices.

Have you used XML publisher? I am really geeked over not having to deal with pdf files as output (unless you really want to)...

Also, with the unspoken benefit of being a Red Stacker vs a Blue Stacker, if one is a Blue Stacker is there (Oracle based) cost in changing to the Red Stack?
Reason I ask this is because we are on WAS 5.02 (which is off of <life> support). Thus the choices are WAS 6 or OAS 10. I'd love to go Red; just not have to pay through the nose to switch...

I'm at the wrong end of the pipeline to speak about cost, but I don't recall anybody mentioning a difference in cost with switching. Usually, I get asked about what should be installed well after the sale has taken place, implying in my mind that I could install either. Certainly, there was no restriction with the downloads from edelivery.oracle.com.

If you haven't moved to 8.97 yet, you should be aware that there are size and timeout issues with the XML Publisher. A client I was at last year used the XML Publisher to format their A/P checks. Once the XML file got past about 200 KB, the processing stopped dead. After a while, we figured out that the enterpriseServerTimeout value in JAS.INI was timing out before the XML Publisher kernel could return a response. We had to kick up this value, and JDENetTimout in the Enterprise Server's JDE.INI.

That's good knowledge.

Thank you; I will file that away...

For details on the timeout issue, see Solution ID 201049123.

Also, I forgot about this thread here, which details the differences between OAS and WAS much better.

With all of this said, has anyone switched stacks recently? If so, was there a fee for going from Blue to Red?

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I would seriously recommend looking at BEA WebLogic ....I personally have loved OAS for JDE support.....but you have to look at the writing on the wall..... JDE was (at one time) ported for BEA WebLogic....BEA WebLogic is kind of the industry standard and is extremely easy to cluster. WebLogic is extremely reliable as well and support is excellent.....My 2 cents.

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Umm - this sounds like your company made the choice to go with WebLogic - against the fact that Oracle has its own Application Server ! AND, to be honest, I think Websphere is more of an "industry standard" for Java Application Servers (though I personally don't like it as much as OAS or Weblogic)

I'm not sure that BEA Weblogic is going to become any sort of JDE JAS standard with the amount of investment occuring with Oracle Application Server. I think its good that JDE is ubiquitous with JAS Servers (wish the same could be said of browsers) - but realistically I think that the best support out there is for OAS, and the fact that there is incentives for WAS users to switch to OAS is indicative of this in the long run.

Just my 2c

However, putting the conversation back on track - go with the "stack" that makes sense to your organization and your internal IT staffing requirements. If you're a microsoft shop, then I'd recommend using a greenish-red "stack" in the shape of Microsoft SQL Server and Oracle OAS - and if you're an AS/400 shop then the blue stack still makes sense. But if you are comfortable with Unix - then I'd go with a full on red stack on Linux...

I am not sure if this has been stated so I will add another comment.

For all of the criteria to choose an web app stack (middleware stack, if you will), XML Publisher support would be at very near the bottom of my list. XML Publisher is relatively new and really isn't that sophisticated. At this point, it is basically just an add-on feature to E1. It parses JDE output as XML. This in and of itself is not new and not a terribly sophisticated process.

My sense is that even if you assume OAS were kept as a standalone product, the other web app servers could be supported in the very near future. It is very clear that WebLogic would be supported since Oracle owns it now. And, if IBM wanted to, they could include this kind of functionality in WebSphere as an add-on product (if you don't want to pay Oracle for XML Publisher).

If XML output is your concern, I would look more broadly at the how Fusion is architected. XML, SOAP and Web Services are the key components of Fusion. As Oracle builds Fusion, the choice of web app servers becomes more critical. Right now, the choice of web app servers is dependent on two things: your own shop's skillset and Oracle-JDE's near-term MTR support. I would look at it from a short and a long -term perspective. Engage the people that already support your web environment (assuming they are not .NET). They will be better able to guide you than JDELIST on this.

Jon, you're making assumptions. OAS was not available for JDE port 5 years ago.

My company has bought many licenses of both stacks for many different J2EE apps. Basically, Blue Stack for JDE and WebLogic for everything else. For JDE, Blue Stack did what it was supposed to do but most of my web app admin peers hated it. For IBM LMS (Learning Management System) and Blue Martini, we had to use WebSphere and they ran like crap. LMS got tossed into the ether bin very soon afterward. Blue Martini got moved to WebLogic.

My company bought WebLogic for Vignette, Hyperion, Concur and a product called Certus. For those apps, it ran great. Clustering was a breeze and it was extremely reliable. BEA WebLogic support was great because that was their _only_ business. So speaking from the collective experience of 5-6 full-time web app admins, I think their opinion was that WebLogic was the best.

I genuinely like OAS and I have used it on 2 installs as a _replacement_ for WebSphere (BTW: no heap dumps so far). I am just suggesting Robert look at the writing on the wall. OAS is a great product but WebLogic was bought because Oracle needs them. It will be central to whatever Fusion evolves into.

With all due respect, I think it would be worth doing some more research. I think you would find that among most web app vendors support, WebLogic is the preferred J2EE server. You could also check out The Server Side or EWeek for other references. The only folks that believe WebSphere is the industry standard is IBM marketers and consultants (who realize 50% of IBM's revenues these days). It is a known fact that IBM embellishes their sales numbers of WebSphere by giving it away with iSeries and pSeries.

BTW: There is no reason to promote anything "greenish-red". He is asking about J2EE app server stacks (not databases). There is zero .NET support in a java app server. That is a dead-end strategy. If he is already running JDE, he isn't going to swap his db has probably already been done.

My 2$.

I worked with 2 companies that switched stacks recently. I wish I knew what the cost was but I honestly do not know.

Both companies were happy with the switch to OAS. They wanted to get rid of WS because of itermittent heap dumps. They thought it was a lot easier to admin, cluster and cache. The only problem was with SAW not being adequately supported thru WebCache.

We ran both side-by-side (with the same Ent server). There was a 35% improvement in performance with the existing JDE apps. It was an easy sell.

We've switched 2 customers from WAS to OAS (Blue to Red Stack).

In each case the switch was free. This doesn't mean that it's free for everyone - talk to your Oracle Rep.

The first switch took a few weeks. The 2nd switch took 6 months of phone calls and follow up.

If you're persistent you may have good results.