Offshoring

  • Thread starter brother_of_karamazov
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brother_of_karamazov

Legendary Poster
I have been absent from jdelist for some time now. Some may not have noticed :)

I made the decision a couple of months ago that I was not going to transfer any knowledge that I might have to people who were going to threaten my ability to support my wife and kids. On jdelist, several people appeared asking newcomer questions and bearing sigs like "Knowledge is good, but Knowledge Transfer is better". While newcomers asking questions is not out of the norm, their place of residence was.

You will have to have lived under a rock to not have heard that current business practices in the US IT world lead companies to "offshore" or "outsource" in hopes of providing that extra nickel of "shareholder value". The result is that many Americans are losing jobs once thought to be the bedrock of our economy. Individuals once valued for their intellectual and problem-solving skills are being replaced with Indians willing to do the same (?) job for less money. Call it a Faustian Bargain, but it is happening. By the time American companies realized that they fired the very people who buy things, it will be too late. I won't even get into the business ethics of supporting a country that engages in child slavery (http://www.anti-slavery.org/global/india/).

PeopleSoft and (the former) JD Edwards are *agressively* making plans for or engaging in business activities that use offshore resources. I understand that a major effort is underway in JDE that makes extensive use of TSE development to enable offshore consulting, so those who thought this was only happening to developers are wrong. PeopleSoft has a major "Offshore Solution Center" initiative going where Indian "consultants" pre-install and configure the PeopleSoft implementation and ship it to the customer, cutting out the need for those pesky American consultants. To get up to speed, these Indian guys are expected to absorb knowledge from their American counterparts and to browse places like jdelist.com

You may not feel about this the way I do, you may feel strongly different about offshoring than I do. You may wish that I were silent. You may not care about me or the fact that I have withdrawn my assistance from those on jdelist. Some may think that is a good thing :). What I hope that you can do is to follow that uniquely American principle of allowing me my opinion, which, like yours, is an opinion. My only wish is to stimulate thought or discussion on this topic.

I will not be an active party to actions that lead to the loss of American jobs.


Insightful comments are always welcome but don't bother flaming me- I've got three inch thick skin from ten years of Usenet and online forums.


"In Germany they came first for the Communists and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist. Then they came for the Jews and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me--and by that time no one was left to speak up. "

--Martin Niemöller
 
List - US side!
Also note that the WTO have nearly ratified opening of the EU markets to all and sundry so that the big corps can get a slice of new markets.
This means that ALL consultants/PM's of whatever nature will be undercut by the big consultancies who can bring in anyone for 6 months in a calander year.

It is not a good time for the IT market - apart from the big boys

I have not seen this happening yet in the UK/EU but there is a lot of press about the abuse of the visa system by the big boys so support projects.
This is at a time when the marklet is at its lowest point ever!

Makes you wonder what governments really want.

Peter
 
Hey,
Talking about Outsourcing and child labor, note only IT but even consumer goods are manufactured outside of US. So, if you think that outsourcing IT to India is bad and should be stopped, why don't you stop using consumer goods also, as most of them are made in China and there are more child laborers there. You sounded very considerate about offshoring and Child labor.

To tell you the truth, half the clothes that are sold in US markets are hand made, especially by children in Al Salvador. and some other poor countries. You wear any of those clothes ?

90% of electronic items are manufactured in China, so US is losing that market. Do you use stuff that is made in China?

It's easy to talk, but hard to face facts. I am not taking anybody's side here, but just telling facts that you should be aware of before you open your big mouth with insufficient knowledge.

If you think carefully about the reason for offshoring you will find it very easy to save your job.

Remember, if you solve a problem, it might arise again, but if you solve the cause of that problem, you will never face it again.
 
I understand your concerns - and I thought I would add my experience.

I have had the misfortune to work with a number of out-sourced offshore teams and to put it bluntly it sucks. In a consultancy/development environment you have to be able to communicate effectively and this really does not work well with offshore people.

In my worthless opinion it leads to a lot more re-work. Thus you use cheap resources but you have go round the loop extra times so it ends up break even.

The problem is the 'political' decision makers will not understand this until it is too late.

However I don't think withdrawing our expertise will help. We need to fight it by drawing attention to the inefficencies and hidden costs.
 
Your experience sucks Ross!! Communication is two way, so if you are having a problem, so is the other person. Anyway...a good consultant always faces challenges rather than whine about it like a baby.

However, I like your attitude of fighting the inefficiencies. Its good to know that finally there are some people who have a little education and talk at a level of understanding.
 
Ross, I have the very same experience as yourself. I've been on several outsourced projects, mainly doing clean-up because the indian consultants could barely spell JDE. I've asked myself the same question: where is the savings, when the company has to bring in a big-6 consulting firm that charges $200/hr to clean up the mess of the $50/hr outsourced firm?

And jde007007 - it's nice to get all philosophical about the problem, but when I'm bidding on a project, and get undercut by an H1B consultant who is willing to work for $35/hr all-inclusive, I get to stay home and not provide for my family. So I understand perfectly where brother_of_kara is coming from.

Peace!
 
Boris,

Here are resolutions to your problems, if you follow them, you will have the PEACE!:

#1) mainly doing clean-up because the indian consultants could barely spell JDE.
Ans: I think the project lead/ director of IT are much more smarter than a JDE developer, they think about company's benefit, so by saying what u just said, you are basically challenging your boss's decision. If the decision was wrong itself, I guess everyone is responsible for their own actions.
And talking about education, India has more english speaking population than US (includes people who can spell JDE). Don't whine, if you see a problem solve it.

#2) Get undercut by an H1B consultant who is willing to work for $35/hr
Ans: Did anyone say that working at $35/hr is a crime ?? There are non-IT people who work at a much lower wage in USA than $35 and can still live peacefully, why can't you?? I guess you just have too high of a demand, thats all. You try to live in a dreamworld. Welcome to the real world!! Lower your luxurios demands, it will save you a job.

I hope this helps you.
 
JDE007007,

Looks like this subject is near and dear to you. You have a total of 3 posts on jdelist, and all 3 of them so far are on this thread.

Thanks for your "resolution" to my "problems", btw. If I read you correctly, my problems are that
1 - I should not have challenged the boss's decision to use offshore consultants
2 - I need to lower my luxurios demands.

Thanks so much, that is great advice. I'm rushing off now to sell my house and get an Indian work visa. I should have no problem finding a project there!
 
Can we please stop this thread? It is a little too political for most of
us.

Off shore development is here to stay, just like off shore everything else.
Those of us back home need to differentiate ourselves from our competition
by continuing to excel, by learning more, exhibiting leadership, etc.

Whether or not you choose to share your knowledge with others, either for
free at JDElist, or for pay elsewhere, is a personal decision. I always
tell people who are thinking about this to consider this: Sharing what you
know frees you up to learn more and push yourself further.

Andy




Andy Klee
www.JDETips.com
 
This is an excellent waste of everyone's time, thanks for you contributions,
tremendous value add.
 
BOK,

we in IT are finally experiencing the results of "globalization" and as you said it ain't pretty if you're in a high wage scale country such as the US. I'm not a consultant but as a developer I also fear for future job/career prospects due to extra-nationals undercutting my wage/price. Since there are many people (in or out of the U.S.) who have as much or more intelligence and ability as I do my options are to expand what I have to offer to an employer (increase my value) or reduce my cost in order to stay competitive. Preferably increase my value somehow to justify my high wages ;)

A separate issue is the one regarding posts in these forums that are basically requests for on-line training and hand-holding on basic issues that should have been already understood by someone charged with supporting or programming in OneWorld. That is what training classes and consultants are for in my opinion. I usually don't respond to such posts that indicate a very basic lack of understanding.

My two cents worth on a difficult subject.
 
All,

While I am enjoying this thread, I believe that we need to set a few ground rules. I believe it is vital to know the potential predijuces in the viewpoints of the participants. I suggest that for this thread we include the following: 1) Claimed country of origin (some are born in one country but raised in another); 2) General type of employer (outsourcer, Big-6, individual employer, small consultant, etc); 3) Continent of employer (for consutants this is for your primary client base); 4) Your continent.

Just a suggestion.

So far this has been a relatively civil thread, please help keep it that way.

My info: 1) US; 2) private Company; 3) NA; 4) NA;

Tom Davidson
 
You guys may rave and rant as much as you want. But remember that the market forces drives these factors. 'Better and more cost effective' WILL always win. Glib talking by the self proclaimed 'gurus' like you cannot cover your inefficiencies.

Go ahead and keep all your knowledge in your closet and lock it up, lest it spread like a virus and vitiate the whole human species.

I think we should open up a new category for these kind of mails which have nothing to do JDE or the work we are doing.

Good luck anyway. May God shower some sense on you if it isnt too late yet.
 
Bottom Line: You get what you pay for! The cost of living is in India is pennies on the U.S Dollar, so I believe jde007007 is really being hypocritical!
 
Long, sorry!
Ok, I'll wade in probably to my own regret but so be it. I'm an all american mutt, my family has been here way to long to claim any ethnic orientation other than American. Let's drop the ethnic slurs and drop the inflamed retorts and get back to the level of educated reason. 007007, India is moving in on this segment because they're hungry and tired of getting paid in cents rather than dollars, They are becoming competitive because they want a better lot in life. America has thrived and excelled for the same reasons, if we lower our expectations in life we will fail as a nation and as a society. India is doing the same thing Japan did 30 years ago, they found a segment of the American ecomomy and improved upon it because we (American auto makers) became complacent about improving it's quality and technology. We got spanked and we are just finally catching up on that lesson. We as IT Pros have had the market cornered for the last 50 years, guess what ERP and software in general isn't cutting edge anymore, we're reinventing the wheel, taking old technology and repackaging it and calling it new. I've been on three different integrated systems in 25 years and at the root of it all they're the same. India will take this market because they're willing to work harder at the same job and don't kid yourself, THEY ARE WELL EDUCATED just as the Japanese were. They are a force to be reckoned with. Americans have thrived and led the world economically because we are INNOVATORS. We create new markets and industries, we push the envelope and find answers to new problems and move forward. We in IT better start looking at what's new and coming, we adapt and provide the base for others to make a living from. We can't isolate ourselves and we can't prevent the world from pursuing the dreams we've achieved. BUT we can continue to build on our successes and continue to innovate. IF clean-up is the lot in life for JDE consultants than grab that market while it's here, you get paid the same. But start preparing for the next wave of technology, whatever that is because if you don't you'll be left behind. Japan didn't sink us in the Auto or Electronics industry and India won't sink us either. It'll change our world but that's one thing Americans have always done for the last 220+ years, adapt and change to meet the challenges and needs of our people. We're done if we stop doing that.


Darrell Allison
Systems Programmer
AS/400 V4R5 9406-730 8-Way / OneWorld B7332 SP11.3
 
BETTER???? Reworking something again and again is not what I would better! Thank you for leeching from God's greatest Nation!
 
I agree with Shashank on the point of 'Better and more cost effective' WILL always win. I just disagree that 'Better and more cost effective' means outsourcing to India.

Shashank, that's the 2nd time that you are disagreeing with me. In both cases in reference to offshore development. And reusing the phrase 'self-proclaimed gurus'. And there you go making assumptions about my inefficiencies. At least let me thank you for wishing me luck and more sense from God.

I think I'll go sit my inefficient ass down, and do some work for my client, before they change their mind and replace me with 5 H1B's
 
My sincerest applause and Bravo! Bravo! to Darrell....if we are smart, we figure what new products will enthuse and excite the IT market, and take a risk and go into that product....that what's Americans do....we take risk...we work hard....we push that envelope that Allison refers to....and we continue to lead and let countries like India and China follow....speaking from a consultant's stand point and from an American point of view...if we Americans want to stay in the game, we must do what we do best...take risk...learn or create new technologies that will capture the interest of the domestic IT market....and exploit those opportunities and make money...let the Indians and Chinese be the "me too company"....but we Americans will continue to lead and create new value.....Bravo! again to Darrell...
this is my 2 cents worth....didn't want to intrude on this thread, because it doesn't really pertain to OW XE....but thought i needed to weigh in with my 2 cents worth

AllisonD <[email protected]> wrote:
Long, sorry! Ok, I'll wade in probably to my own regret but so be it. I'm an all american mutt, my family has been here way to long to claim any ethnic orientation other than American. Let's drop the ethnic slurs and drop the inflamed retorts and get back to the level of educated reason. 007007, India is moving in on this segment because they're hungry and tired of getting paid in cents rather than dollars, They are becoming competitive because they want a better lot in life. America has thrived and excelled for the same reasons, if we lower our expectations in life we will fail as a nation and as a society. India is doing the same thing Japan did 30 years ago, they found a segment of the American ecomomy and improved upon it because we (American auto makers) became complacent about improving it's quality and technology. We got spanked and we are just finally catching up on that lesson. We as IT Pros have had the market cornered for the last 50 years, guess what ER!
P and software in general isn't cutting edge anymore, we're reinventing the wheel, taking old technology and repackaging it and calling it new. I've been on three different integrated systems in 25 years and at the root of it all they're the same. India will take this market because they're willing to work harder at the same job and don't kid yourself, THEY ARE WELL EDUCATED just as the Japanese were. They are a force to be reckoned with. Americans have thrived and led the world economically because we are INNOVATORS. We create new markets and industries, we push the envelope and find answers to new problems and move forward. We in IT better start looking at what's new and coming, we adapt and provide the base for others to make a living from. We can't isolate ourselves and we can't prevent the world from pursuing the dreams we've achieved. BUT we can continue to build on our successes and continue to innovate. IF clean-up is the lot in life for JDE consultants tha!
n grab that market while it's here, you get paid the same. But start
preparing for the next wave of technology, whatever that is because if you don't you'll be left behind. Japan didn't sink us in the Auto or Electronics industry and India won't sink us either. It'll change our world but that's one thing Americans have always done for the last 220+ years, adapt and change to meet the challenges and needs of our people. We're done if we stop doing that.Darrell AllisonSystems ProgrammerAS/400 V4R5 9406-730 8-Way / OneWorld B7332 SP11.3
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Every once in a while I step in to get flamed.

Why are you making your responses personal attacks on the other posters?

BOK simply stated his reason for no longer contributing to the list. You apparently have taken it as a personal attack while the majority of listers did not. I'm sure that's not how it was meant. I, for one, was wondering where BOK went.

You also complain that the other posters are whining, what was that reply of your? It certainly was not a well constructed arguement. In fact it appears to be a spew of your own narrow outlook on the world. You did take sides, yours. Kind of like whining, no?

No one of us can judge anothers experiences and none of us has the same world outlook. But you can tell Ross that his expeience "sucks". Or am I reading this wrong and you are agreeing with him. Hard to tell from the structure of your retort. Maybe it's those extra exclamation marks that make your point? (Yes, that was a comment on your ability to communicate.)

In my mind the outsourcing of jobs is all part of the capitalist way. Do I like it if it affects me? Heck no. But I do understand it.

If you want to contribute then tell us why this is a good thing instead of "whining" because the other posters don't share your perspective.

Flame on!
 
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