Offshoring

Yet another reply from someone who just created their account. If you guys are unashamed and are *truly* willing to compete why are you afraid of using your *real* account?

Hiding behind a made up account tells me that you are unwilling to come out in the open.

Altquark,

You make good points some I agree with and some which I don't.

1. Articulate communication becomes even more critical with offshore development than even when dealing with an ASP. This slows down the creation of functional and technical design documentation. This WILL ALWAYS increase project timeline.
2. With higher risk, management of the project must take more comprehensive steps to mitigate the problem. Some of the cost could include:
- Creation of a complete dummy data set for use by developers.
- Oversight of the offshore component. (I.E. sending a HQ based IT manager to oversee the work at the offshore location).
3. You make various statements concerning the Indian economy such as lower living and working conditions. Before those issues can be addressed, jobs have to be created. It is this first step that seems to be the crux of this whole discussion.
4. (Where does the insanity end?) Agreed, change is painful whether driven by the free market or otherwise. However, market driven change results in a stronger macro economy for all involved countries. Cutting off Indian and Chinese IT resources certainly hurts those economys and also hurts ours.
5. (CEO's will always go for lower costs) Each of the issues you listed have $$$$ costs associated with them. CEO's must consider the cost of all of these items when they make their decisions.

jdepsft,

Your URL says everything with one word 'Clinton', he is the one who opened the doors further for outsourcing of US(IT)jobs. This in the name of higher corporate profits at the cost of the American worker.

I am all for competition, but level the playing fields with tariffs or better yet, have these foreign workers live in the US and actually pays taxes. America is the land of opportunity for all, it's freedom and rights have been defended by many lost lives. It is truly sad to see foreigners profit without any sacrifice.

Never Forget 9/11/01

Bush Lays Off Congress; will Outsource Lawmaking to India

Washington - Citing the growing cost of running the Federal
government and the need to cut costs in order to reduce the budget
deficit, President Bush announced today that he was laying off all
535 members of Congress and transferring lawmaking operations to a
legislative support center in Bangalore, India. "Hey, outsourcing is
the way to go these days," said Bush at an impromptu news
conference where he announced the decision, adding, "the American
people want to see less government waste. Since every one of those
ex-Congressmen had a salary of $150,000, this move will cut our
costs by over $80 million per year, and that's not even counting
what we'll save on health insurance and retirement plans." Sources
indicate that the Indian replacements will be paid approximately
$250 per month.

The outcry from the newly laid-off Senators and Representatives was
swift. Ex-California Senator Diane Feinstein said, "This is
absolutely outrageous. How can a bunch of replacements over in India
run Congress? What do they know about filibusters and committee
hearings?" As she was being escorted out of the Hart Senate Office
Building by U.S. Capitol Police officers, Feinstein complained that
the newly-terminated lawmakers were only given ten minutes to clean
out their desks and leave the building.

"I think it's a great idea," said Vice President Dick Cheney,
speaking from a secure undisclosed location. "The American people
were fed up with that expensive do-nothing Congress which didn't
always give the President everything he asked for. Our new Indian
replacements will be much cooperative to the President, which is
what we all want." Asked whether the outsourcing may be
unconstitutional, Cheney noted, "That's up to the Supreme Court to
decide, but as you know, they usually see things our way."

The new members of Congress seem thrilled with the attention they
are receiving. Speaking from the offices of All-India Legislative
Support Centre Ltd. in Bangalore, new Mississippi Senator Ramchandra
Shektar Gupta told reporters, "The Indian people are very hard
working and we will do our best as U.S. Congressmen and
Congresswomen. And we are going to have some fun too. Just think:
we have $2 trillion of the American taxpayers' money to spend!"

Good points -

But I have no problem with any individual immigrating to the US or whatever land they choose to work in. I have issues with companies using workers outside of their country - in poorer, less advantaged companies - at much reduced rates, simply to drive a higher profit. This is slave labor still, it provides no rights for the individual that is working in India, and provides little recompensation for the American company when things go terribly wrong.

All in all - is it a positive thing to outsource or a negative thing ? I see the facts point to the only positive thing as being a higher profit margin for the US company - and plenty of negatives on both sides.

I personally believe that the China Development Industry will be a lot stronger than the Indian industry - but both countries have such a problem with human rights issues right now, that any US individual has to think long and hard about the repurcussions of supporting either economy.

I have read several articles by mainstream economist and they are saying some
interesing things. For example, companies are starting to find that they
have fired the very people that buy things from them.

Also, the problem is much bigger, it is not just the software industry that
are outsourcing to offshore companies. Entire departments such Macy's AR and
AP departments have out sourced most of their staff to offshore companies. I
personally have friends and family who have been affected by this change in
business practices. The salt of the earth type people are being replaced in
every walk of life by outsourcing. It is economic shift in America that may
have far reaching affects in the next ten years; it is truly something to be
concerned about.

In an economic sense most things have a cycle and I think outsourcing will be
much the same. I think many companies will realize that there is a negative
impact from out sourcing but that may not happen for some time to come. In
the meantime it will take a toll on many of our families.

Now that we have identified the problem what can one do to solve it. First
my father is constantly writing his state and federal representatives about
these very issues and so am I; the internet provides easy access. Does this
approach work; I can only hope? One person does not make a difference but an
entire nation acting as one voice might. After all that is one of basic
ideas of our country; united we stand divided we fall.



--
Senior Technical Consultant
17611 E. Tennessee Pl.
Aurora, CO 80017
Work 303-337-1906
Cell 303-885-1405
Fax 303-306-1800

Please, send this to your congressman! Very good stuff.

--
Senior Technical Consultant
17611 E. Tennessee Pl.
Aurora, CO 80017
Work 303-337-1906
Cell 303-885-1405
Fax 303-306-1800

I do not buy products or services from India, due to:

1) Child slavery
2) No environmental controls
3) Generally poor quality
4) Disgusting treatment of women
5) Treatment of "untouchables"

Obviously not all Indian people are "directly" involved with the above and I have yet to hear stories of cages full of IT developers. Several of my best friends over the years were born in India and moved away. I have met very few Indian people that I didn't like.
The fact remains that only the governments of the developed countries can make moves to protect their interests by demanding 2-way trade and by insisting on trading with people that embrace the same human rights beliefs as they do.

Altquark,

1. Though I strongly disagree, I understand your point and respect it.

2. I cannot see any negative aspects for India and China. Though I believe
its impact to be Macro positive for western economies, I concede that this
point can be argued.

3. I question whether the economic boycott that you are indirectly proposing
could have a positive impact on the living standards in those countries. I
perceive a tarrif/boycott solution to make matters worse rather than better.

Examples supporting this position include Cuba and Iraq (before invasion).
Both seemed to become more belligerent after the boycott rather than less.

Jeremy Shearer
Phone 816-305-0194
Fax 309-414-0543




Jeremy Shearer
Independent CNC Consultant
[email protected]

Dear List,

Please stop the Indian slamming on this forum. We should be all above this.
Offshoring goes far beyond India and some of the very best JDE consultants I
know are Indian with decent and honest values and do not support Offshoring.

We can still be pro-American without slamming other cultures. Tolerance
should say it all. Please remember that being American and supporting
Freedom means that we all came from some where else at somewhere down the
line because of unfair persecution in other places and hope for better
opportunity in the land of the free.

Tolerance, Peace and Love.

Best regards,

Don R. Simpson
General Manager & Partner, SSC Inc.
Stratagem Systems Consulting, Inc. - A Subsidiary of Capital Alliance
Holdings, LLC
Certified Optio Partner - www.optiosoftware.com
PeopleSoft Alliance Consulting Partner - www.peoplesoft.com
3333 Warrenville Rd., Suite 200 # 73
Lisle, IL 60532
Phone: (630) 961-5662
Fax: (630) 961-5644
Email: [email protected]
Web: www.Stratagem.US




Don R. Simpson
Stratagem Systems Consulting, Inc. (SSC)PeopleSoft Allainace Service Partner
3333 Warrenville Rd., Suite 200 # 73, (630) 961-5662, www.stratagem.us, [email protected]

--- donrsimpson <[email protected]> wrote:

Hi Don,
Thank you for your voice of reason. I lurk mainly and yes, this is my real name
and profile.
I owe much of my JDE knowledge to both American and Indian consultants, work
mates and friends. I worked for JDE in Denver for 3 years and have worked with
many people of all races and learned much from all of them. I now work with a
person of Indian descent who I regard to be one of the most knowledgable,
helpful, and intelligent people I've had the pleasure of working with. Not to
mention, he's a fine person and a good friend.
Do I agree with with offshoring? No. Will racial profiling change the
situation. No. We as technical professionals cannot make any gains by putting
down other professionals. We can only better ourselves by keeping up to date,
gaining as much knowledge as possible, and working as hard as we can to the
betterment of our employers and clients.
Withhold your knowledge if you feel that it will help you. Disparage other
races if it makes you feel better about yourself. But please, keep this list
for what it was intended... the exchange of knowledge.
Now, has anyone out there had any GOOD experience in using I-Many for advanced
pricing?

Mike Kissel
AS400 DB2
XE SP 20 with WAY too many modifications...




__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com

I am all for competition, but level the playing fields with tariffs or better yet, have these foreign workers live in the US and actually pays taxes. America is the land of opportunity for all, it's freedom and rights have been defended by many lost lives. It is truly sad to see foreigners profit without any sacrifice.

Never Forget 9/11/01

Hello Martin,

I am sure this very post of yours is in response to my reply to you. You have basically picked up inputs from my posts.What I mean by "transfer is better" is , till the time you are creating your replacement you cannot reach new heights. If you have reached a level you must look out for another level, in short you and your career path should be dynamic enough to set new goals each time your reach a stagnant state.

It seems this post is nothing but your inability to compete with your counterpart in developing countries. Today the IT market is that of competition from all corners. To be in the market you have to be the best. No one in the whole world would pay if you cannot perform. It goes without saying Time is Money in today's world economy. So, if you don't have the skills to perform in TIME no one is going to wait for you to finish the job. The buck is always going to be passed to the one who can perform in time.

I don't think and am also very sure nobody in this forum cares or even bothers how long have been absent from jdelist. Its all your decision weather you want to be a part of the forum or not. There are many who are joining in everyday and leaving too.

I believe FORUMS is a place where you visit to get your issue resolved or resolve others issue. This happens under only two circumstances 1) You are stuck on a issue. 2) You have the knowledge and you wish to share in your spare time and at the same time learn. In short, I believe Forums help you sharpen your skills and knowledge and inspire to reach new heights.

A company would never even think of going in for offshore mode until it makes profit. So, if a company makes profit doing work in offshore mode it makes profit which adds up to the economic state of both the countries. Further, offshore resources can always be trained to compete with you.

As far as experience of working with offshore team is concerned, I don't deny the fact some do mess up. But then again one should never think on-site team never mess's up. Very recently, in one of the projects the we had challenged the on-site team with the design of a particular module and for your information they had to except our design because of too many flaws in their design.

You have tried to create somekind of a anti Indian or China feeling in here and divide the people on this ground. This is not a gesture of a true professional.

I don't want to say more on this.. I would end my post by saying lets not create a political forum out here but utilize this platform JDELIST.COM as knowledge sharing one.

I am sorry if I have heart someone's feelings.I just want to speak in the spirit of the forum.

Hi Sunny

You make some very good points and I agree racism is to be avoided.

However, you say "A company would never even think of going in for offshore
mode until it makes profit. So, if a company makes profit doing work in
offshore mode it makes profit which adds up to the economic state of both
the countries".

This is not true. Although the company may make a profit by going offshore,
not guaranteed, if it does it will be at the expense of local workers who
will lose their jobs to another nation. That increases the numbers on
benefit and that is subsequently a drain on the wealth resources of the home
country, whichever you wish to name.

The problem is a global one that politicians need to resolve. Chief Execs,
wherever they are, are only interested in their bottom line. That of course
is how they are judged, so who can blame them?

I restate my position of only providing info on this forum for those I am
pretty sure are well trained in JDE skills, but who have come across an
unusual or urgent problem. Sad to say, there are many who post on here who
are just after free knowledge transfer. As far I'm concerned, they're on
their own and should RTFM.

Keep well and take care.
regards
Sid Perkins
Independent Consultant
Tel: 44 (0)1304 825003
Mobile: 44 (0)7713158807
[email protected]

----- Original Message -----
From: "sunnyind" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 8:03 AM
Subject: Re: Offshoring


to you. You have basically picked up inputs from my posts.What I mean by
"transfer is better" is , till the time you are creating your replacement
you cannot reach new heights. If you have reached a level you must look out
for another level, in short you and your career path should be dynamic
enough to set new goals each time your reach a stagnant state.It seems this
post is nothing but your inability to compete with your counterpart in
developing countries. Today the IT market is that of competition from all
corners. To be in the market you have to be the best. No one in the whole
world would pay if you cannot perform. It goes without saying Time is Money
in today's world economy. So, if you don't have the skills to perform in
TIME no one is going to wait for you to finish the job. The buck is always
going to be passed to the one who can perform in time.I don't think and am
also very sure nobody!
jdelist. Its all your decision weather you want to be a part of the forum or
not. There are many who are joining in everyday and leaving too.I believe
FORUMS is a place where you visit to get your issue resolved or resolve
others issue. This happens under only two circumstances 1) You are stuck on
a issue. 2) You have the knowledge and you wish to share in your spare time
and at the same time learn. In short, I believe Forums help you sharpen your
skills and knowledge and inspire to reach new heights. A company would never
even think of going in for offshore mode until it makes profit. So, if a
company makes profit doing work in offshore mode it makes profit which adds
up to the economic state of both the countries. Further, offshore resources
can always be trained to compete with you.As far as experience of working
with offshore team is concerned, I don't deny the fact some do mess up. But
then again!
design of a particular module and for your information they had to except
our design because of too many flaws in their design.You have tried to
create somekind of a anti Indian or China feeling in here and divide the
people on this ground. This is not a gesture of a true professional.I don't
want to say more on this.. I would end my post by saying lets not create a
political forum out here but utilize this platform JDELIST.COM as knowledge
sharing one.I am sorry if I have heart someone's feelings.I just want to
speak in the spirit of the forum.
http://www.jdelist.com/ubb/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=OW&Number=61633
messages, login to http://www.jdelist.com/forums, click Control Panel, then
click Edit by "Subscribe / Unsubscribe from receiving board posts by email,
change message notifications, etc." and adjust your subscription
preferences. JDEList is not affiliated with JDEdwards®

Hi Sunny,

Do you know Martin because I was wondering how you knew he wasn't "reaching for new heights?" Maybe he is and is just frustrated with what is going on around him? Just curious.

I respectfully disagree about your "inability to compete with your counterpart in developing countries" statement. Although, that would be true if the developing countries economy & laws were identically to the US. However, they aren't and as a result we -- in the United States -- developed taxes on imported goods (i.e., Tariffs).

The internet -- and technology in general -- have greatly impacted our world. In fact, it's impact is so great that legislation has yet to keep up. I give you Napster as a most recent example. While handing over your newly purchased music CD to the neighbor next door -- in exchage for his -- is perfectly legal, it has been deemed illegal when you use a forum such as the internet which will reach the masses. This is a relatively new law that was inacted because of something nobody even thought of; using the internet to basically "give away" free music!

In summation, this is a problem (as previously mentioned) that should be brought to the attention of the US Government, not blamed on any other country/peoples.

Wow BOK, you sure started a lively thread! Here's a different perspective.

I am a US CNC working for a US based corporation doing business and having operations worldwide. We are a Global company and behave that way. The JDE team here in the US provides consulting services to our off-shore subsidiaries. Our current trend is to "on-shore" our JDE servers to the US and use a WAN link to Asia and the sub-contentient. (Yes, India is considering moving their server to the US) Our sales tactic to our off-shore management? We have developed the expertise and have the experienced staff here in the US, why reinvent the wheel off-shore?

Our JDE team here in the US is multinational. Our team is from Brazil, Mexico, India, China, Korea, Canada and the US. I find it very interesting working with the best and brightest from around the globe. I support users from four different countries on my servers and other than the issue of being on-call 24 hours day, enjoy working with a global group of end-users and developers. My job is plenty secure, at least until my company figures out how to "off-planet" the work.

Wow BOK, you sure started a lively thread! Here's a different perspective.

I am a US CNC working for a US based corporation doing business and having operations worldwide. We are a Global company and behave that way. The JDE team here in the US provides consulting services to our off-shore subsidiaries. Our current trend is to "on-shore" our JDE servers to the US and use a WAN link to Asia and the sub-contentient. (Yes, India is considering moving their server to the US) Our sales tactic to our off-shore management? We have developed the expertise and have the experienced staff here in the US, why reinvent the wheel off-shore?

Our JDE team here in the US is multinational. Our team is from Brazil, Mexico, India, China, Korea, Canada and the US. I find it very interesting working with the best and brightest from around the globe. I support users from four different countries on my servers and other than the issue of being on-call 24 hours day, enjoy working with a global group of end-users and developers. My job is plenty secure, at least until my company figures out how to "off-planet" the work.

Too Funny!!!

Linda Perella

Hi List,

I don't see all the fuss in using "cheaper" but equally competant resources - regardless from where they may originate. In fact, it seems natural.

At the end of the day, cutting costs and saving money is the endless pursuit of any public registered company. Shareholders simply want to see better returns on their shares.

I might also note the US has a "little bit of mud on its hands" regarding equal playing fields and fair trading practices on the global stage.

In the early 90s, Australia spent 100s of millions of $ on developing a market in the US for sales of lamb meat products. In just 3 years after extensive promotion and marketing an industry and a ready market was formed. Guess what? Bingo! The US government seeing the opportunity commenced placing higher tariffs on lamb meat products and the project from an Australian point of view was over. So in the end, after a tough lesson in "fair" trading with the US, the Australian government found another market (which has evolved to be as lucrative) - the Middle East.

Now Australia gets even with the US, by providing a large number of quality Hollywood actors & actresses! ;-)

If someone can come and do my job cheaper, then good luck to them. Competition, is not only good in increasing my ambitions to do my job better, but as the cliche says "is good for business". I guess I just have to lower my salary expectations or find something else to work with. Hmm.. maybe an acting job!

I hold renewed hope that the 'spirit' in this list prevails and that people continue to contribute freely and amicably. In passing, I hope this topic continues to keep to the facts and I look forward to a continuation in the good-will and knowledge-sharing that has been seen on JDELIST over the years.

Amicable regards,
/Porup

First of all, I don't believe this thread needs to have the "race card" held up when someone provides criticism for offshoring. By making the suggestion that offshoring is bad, and that they are affecting workers in the US directly - is not racism. Those workers might have originated from anywhere in the world - the point is they have struggled to situate themselves in the US.

Someone was telling me recently that Ireland is the next big "india" when it comes to offshore development - well, firstly I cannot see an Irish developer earning only $10,000 per year. The issue isn't who or where - its by how much ! Cutting costs down to insanely low amounts will not help the market in any way shape or form - but if it is done reasonably, then it can work. There are indeed advantages for outsourcing to India and Europe - such as 24 hour development shifts - but these are NOT the reasons for companies offshoring - the only reason is because of the horrendously low rates.

I have thought about this for the weekend - and taken My Shearers' and BOK's thoughts - I don't believe that this economical structure can survive - I do not believe that India or China can continue to charge at rates 1/5th as much as the US. Therefore we're going to enter a downshift (once again) and this downshift of course will affect the economy in general. Something will happen to drive up the prices again - whether its realization of the developers in the relavent country - or its the quality of that development and communication.