jeff_westman
Member
Boris, just 5, we use a factor of atleast 10.
ssrini11
Active Member
Hi Boris,
This exactly what I meant by 'self proclaimed gurus'. You think that you will need 5 H1Bs replace one Boris. How naive... Go and take a look at Microsoft, Oracle or Ciscos development centers and you will realize what I mean. You would not have had the luxury of these fancy OS, software and databases but for the very H1Bs you are trying to curse.
I dont mean to get personal but would strongly recommend you to get out of your box and look around. There are tons of people who are, at the very least, as good as you are if not any better. It is just outright foolish in today's global environement to think that you are the best of the lot and hence, indispensible.
While everybody respects a good brain, the attitude determines whether the individual gets their share or not. Even an extremely intelligent brain in a proud and vain body will make the individual a mere a***ole.
I think thats enough philosophy for the day...Back to work
Just FYI, I am not H1B either
This exactly what I meant by 'self proclaimed gurus'. You think that you will need 5 H1Bs replace one Boris. How naive... Go and take a look at Microsoft, Oracle or Ciscos development centers and you will realize what I mean. You would not have had the luxury of these fancy OS, software and databases but for the very H1Bs you are trying to curse.
I dont mean to get personal but would strongly recommend you to get out of your box and look around. There are tons of people who are, at the very least, as good as you are if not any better. It is just outright foolish in today's global environement to think that you are the best of the lot and hence, indispensible.
While everybody respects a good brain, the attitude determines whether the individual gets their share or not. Even an extremely intelligent brain in a proud and vain body will make the individual a mere a***ole.
I think thats enough philosophy for the day...Back to work
Just FYI, I am not H1B either
ekempter
Administrator
Folks,
Can we please keep the disparaging comments to a minimum. I understand that this topic is near and dear to many but please keep the posts civil and articulate.
Thank you,
Eric Kempter
JDELIST.com
.......................
Can we please keep the disparaging comments to a minimum. I understand that this topic is near and dear to many but please keep the posts civil and articulate.
Thank you,
Eric Kempter
JDELIST.com
.......................
got_to_love_jde
Reputable Poster
got a name and a country 007 ?
dave
dave
got_to_love_jde
Reputable Poster
Brother,
I too have started to limit who I reply to in the past 4 or 5 months. Seems silly to help get rid of my job.
Dave
I too have started to limit who I reply to in the past 4 or 5 months. Seems silly to help get rid of my job.
Dave
DBohner-(db)
Legendary Poster
I wouldn't count on 007 owning up to too much - apparently 007 created a new list account, just for this thread. Probably playing both sides of the fence (cumin out'd closet any time soon??)
<on a side note> --------------------
This is an internat'nal list - so we'd not just talk about waz threat'n the yanks the buggas or chiggas - we should try to keep a 'tad bit more course. Like, how do we re-arm dose injuns with arrows and bows so they can down a buff and eat fur-d-winter?
An 2 think, all dis got staughted by custer getting his hiney tainted at the little big hourn in the mid-west? WOW - naw this injun ting has been blowin internation'l
HOW! that's da way to greet un-unudder. Injuns was here befor the yanks - so what's da deal? If dey wanz to work me job - dey can have it. Lon hours way from da kidz (goats de iz) and barly fording my heep of a caw - dey can hav it awl!
Me no Gettit.
db
<no harm intendededededed>
<on a side note> --------------------
This is an internat'nal list - so we'd not just talk about waz threat'n the yanks the buggas or chiggas - we should try to keep a 'tad bit more course. Like, how do we re-arm dose injuns with arrows and bows so they can down a buff and eat fur-d-winter?
An 2 think, all dis got staughted by custer getting his hiney tainted at the little big hourn in the mid-west? WOW - naw this injun ting has been blowin internation'l
HOW! that's da way to greet un-unudder. Injuns was here befor the yanks - so what's da deal? If dey wanz to work me job - dey can have it. Lon hours way from da kidz (goats de iz) and barly fording my heep of a caw - dey can hav it awl!
Me no Gettit.
db
<no harm intendededededed>
ekempter
Administrator
Folks,
Can we move on please.
Thanks,
Eric Kempter
Jdelist.com
.......................
Can we move on please.
Thanks,
Eric Kempter
Jdelist.com
.......................
donrsimpson
Active Member
Here, here!!!!
Or is it........
'Over there, over there?????????'
Don R. Simpson
General Manager & Partner, SSC Inc.
Stratagem Systems Consulting, Inc. - A Subsidiary of Capital Alliance
Holdings, LLC
Certified Optio Partner - www.optiosoftware.com
PeopleSoft Alliance Consulting Partner - www.peoplesoft.com
3333 Warrenville Rd., Suite 200 # 73
Lisle, IL 60532
Phone: (630) 961-5662
Fax: (630) 961-5644
Email: [email protected]
Web: www.Stratagem.US
Don R. Simpson
Stratagem Systems Consulting, Inc. (SSC)PeopleSoft Allainace Service Partner
3333 Warrenville Rd., Suite 200 # 73, (630) 961-5662, www.stratagem.us, [email protected]
Or is it........
'Over there, over there?????????'
Don R. Simpson
General Manager & Partner, SSC Inc.
Stratagem Systems Consulting, Inc. - A Subsidiary of Capital Alliance
Holdings, LLC
Certified Optio Partner - www.optiosoftware.com
PeopleSoft Alliance Consulting Partner - www.peoplesoft.com
3333 Warrenville Rd., Suite 200 # 73
Lisle, IL 60532
Phone: (630) 961-5662
Fax: (630) 961-5644
Email: [email protected]
Web: www.Stratagem.US
Don R. Simpson
Stratagem Systems Consulting, Inc. (SSC)PeopleSoft Allainace Service Partner
3333 Warrenville Rd., Suite 200 # 73, (630) 961-5662, www.stratagem.us, [email protected]
jde007007
Member
Re: RE: Offshoring
Ekepmter: Sorry to bug you, but this will be the last email from my side. I know its pretty annoying
got_to_love_jde: What are you gonna do with my name? I can use anybody's, you will not find out whether its true or not, anyway, My country : India
Jeff_Westman: "Bottom Line: You get what you pay for! The cost of living is in India is pennies on the U.S Dollar, so I believe jde007007 is really being hypocritical!"
Ans: My neighbor makes $30/hr, he is all american, have 2 kids and have more luxuries than I do, never heard him complaining.
I do not understand how am I hypocritical? I do not think anybody has the right to badmouth India, just because they do not like the challenge they have to face or have had some bad experiences.
dhelsley: "If you want to contribute then tell us why this is a good thing instead of "whining" because the other posters don't share your perspective."
Ans: Well, according to Boris, he is losing his job bcoz an Indian is ready to work for $35/hr, I do not think thats a fair statement, its business.
example, you go in 2 different stores, will you buy the same stuff from an expensive store or a cheaper one (considering same brand and quality)?
Over and Out folks. I hope none of us wants any more of this, so DO NOT badmouth Indians or India in future.
Have a good weeeknd JDE Lovers !!
Ekepmter: Sorry to bug you, but this will be the last email from my side. I know its pretty annoying
got_to_love_jde: What are you gonna do with my name? I can use anybody's, you will not find out whether its true or not, anyway, My country : India
Jeff_Westman: "Bottom Line: You get what you pay for! The cost of living is in India is pennies on the U.S Dollar, so I believe jde007007 is really being hypocritical!"
Ans: My neighbor makes $30/hr, he is all american, have 2 kids and have more luxuries than I do, never heard him complaining.
I do not understand how am I hypocritical? I do not think anybody has the right to badmouth India, just because they do not like the challenge they have to face or have had some bad experiences.
dhelsley: "If you want to contribute then tell us why this is a good thing instead of "whining" because the other posters don't share your perspective."
Ans: Well, according to Boris, he is losing his job bcoz an Indian is ready to work for $35/hr, I do not think thats a fair statement, its business.
example, you go in 2 different stores, will you buy the same stuff from an expensive store or a cheaper one (considering same brand and quality)?
Over and Out folks. I hope none of us wants any more of this, so DO NOT badmouth Indians or India in future.
Have a good weeeknd JDE Lovers !!
shearerj
Reputable Poster
Re: RE: Offshoring
Free market: The same device that brought us $175+ an hour in the past, is the same device that is moving work offshore now. We did not complain four years ago when the market was in our favor therefore we should not complain now.
The challenge for North American, European and Australian based consultants is to adapt. We either need to find an improved method to provide value to the market or accept the lower income level.
[US Based with Offshore and ASP experience]
Free market: The same device that brought us $175+ an hour in the past, is the same device that is moving work offshore now. We did not complain four years ago when the market was in our favor therefore we should not complain now.
The challenge for North American, European and Australian based consultants is to adapt. We either need to find an improved method to provide value to the market or accept the lower income level.
[US Based with Offshore and ASP experience]
brother_of_karamazov
Legendary Poster
Re: RE: Offshoring
"..so DO NOT badmouth Indians or India in future. "
The only thing I hate worse than being told what to do is someone who is holding a knife to your throat while playing a victim. I see that you have learned well from the other victim groups that abound today. Problem is that pesky little thing called Free Speech that we enjoy.
I guess that you do wish this issue to "just go away", makes your life easier. You and your countrymen have been exposed on this forum and may find it a little more difficult to steal knowledge and jobs.
I have no problem competing with someone, let's just make it fairer by eliminating the slave labor in the Indian economy. I really have no problem competing, just don't ask me to sharpen the knife that my competition will use to stab me with by asking for my knowledge. That was my original point.
"I do not think anybody has the right to badmouth India..."
This is where you are wrong. The right to badmouth India exists as a constitutional right in America. While Eric does not have to provide me a forum, the basic right to say what I feel is a God-given right. Your misunderstanding of this basic concept tells me enough.
I find it humorous that you were perfectly happy here as long as people were giving you knowledge but as soon as someone dared to challenge you, you went haywire in this huge defensive screed. Did you really expect everyone to lay down as Indians go about putting us out of jobs? Say what you will but in the end, I still have a family to feed and will do whatever is necessary to accomplish that, just as you will.
"..so DO NOT badmouth Indians or India in future. "
The only thing I hate worse than being told what to do is someone who is holding a knife to your throat while playing a victim. I see that you have learned well from the other victim groups that abound today. Problem is that pesky little thing called Free Speech that we enjoy.
I guess that you do wish this issue to "just go away", makes your life easier. You and your countrymen have been exposed on this forum and may find it a little more difficult to steal knowledge and jobs.
I have no problem competing with someone, let's just make it fairer by eliminating the slave labor in the Indian economy. I really have no problem competing, just don't ask me to sharpen the knife that my competition will use to stab me with by asking for my knowledge. That was my original point.
"I do not think anybody has the right to badmouth India..."
This is where you are wrong. The right to badmouth India exists as a constitutional right in America. While Eric does not have to provide me a forum, the basic right to say what I feel is a God-given right. Your misunderstanding of this basic concept tells me enough.
I find it humorous that you were perfectly happy here as long as people were giving you knowledge but as soon as someone dared to challenge you, you went haywire in this huge defensive screed. Did you really expect everyone to lay down as Indians go about putting us out of jobs? Say what you will but in the end, I still have a family to feed and will do whatever is necessary to accomplish that, just as you will.
jde007007
Member
Re: RE: Offshoring
aah.. you are such a moron BOK. I had hoped to end this flame, but anyway..
"Did you really expect everyone to lay down as Indians go about putting us out of jobs?"
Ans: Indians are not putting you out of job. Everyone is responsible for their own actions. You said you have the consititutional right to badmouth India, well, where is your constitutional right to protect your job??? I guess you don't have one do you? you see your right to badmouth India is putting you out of job. Maybe you should enjoy some other constitution right, like the right of FREE WILL, if you understand it.
Grow up dude, you remind me of a teenager who thinks that nothing can destroy him. IT world is a race, you have to win it.
Don't cry that you are going to lose a job, rather do something to protect it.
Talking about constitutuional rights.... and use your freedom of speech to help you get another job if you are losing this one.
aah.. you are such a moron BOK. I had hoped to end this flame, but anyway..
"Did you really expect everyone to lay down as Indians go about putting us out of jobs?"
Ans: Indians are not putting you out of job. Everyone is responsible for their own actions. You said you have the consititutional right to badmouth India, well, where is your constitutional right to protect your job??? I guess you don't have one do you? you see your right to badmouth India is putting you out of job. Maybe you should enjoy some other constitution right, like the right of FREE WILL, if you understand it.
Grow up dude, you remind me of a teenager who thinks that nothing can destroy him. IT world is a race, you have to win it.
Don't cry that you are going to lose a job, rather do something to protect it.
Talking about constitutuional rights.... and use your freedom of speech to help you get another job if you are losing this one.
brother_of_karamazov
Legendary Poster
Re: RE: Offshoring
Sir, as Eric requested, let's try to keep this debate at a level above childish taunts.
When you have something to say, and are ready to say in an adult manner I'll be glad to pay attention to you. In the meantime, do learn how to debate without freaking completely out- it tends to diminish your message.
Sir, as Eric requested, let's try to keep this debate at a level above childish taunts.
When you have something to say, and are ready to say in an adult manner I'll be glad to pay attention to you. In the meantime, do learn how to debate without freaking completely out- it tends to diminish your message.
Pon
Well Known Member
Re: RE: Offshoring
Very interesting topic. You all have very good points! Please do not "flame" me as I wish not to "flame" any lister. I'd just like to throw out my .02 cents for what it's worth. This topic is nothing new to the U.S. The "new" part is the fact that it has reached the IT market here. We, as IT folks, have not had to experience what other industries have confronted throughout the last few decades. While I do feel it is necessary to "adapt" to overcome any adversity, generally we are not playing on a level playing field when confronted with this situation. Whether it be automobiles, clothing, steel, etc., the bottom line is this: the laws in other countries do not reflect the laws here in the US. While we in the US have to uphold different standards (i.e., benefits for our workers/labor laws, environmental laws, anti-trust/monopolies, unions, etc.) other countries can many times -- not in all cases mind you -- do as they please. Just because our clothing or cars parts may be made in a different country -- under different standards and laws -- does not mean it's acceptable for IT to suffer the same fate. Maybe a Tariff on offshore IT outsourcing?!? Who knows?
Ultimately, in the end, the cream will float to the top; whoever that may be.
Very interesting topic. You all have very good points! Please do not "flame" me as I wish not to "flame" any lister. I'd just like to throw out my .02 cents for what it's worth. This topic is nothing new to the U.S. The "new" part is the fact that it has reached the IT market here. We, as IT folks, have not had to experience what other industries have confronted throughout the last few decades. While I do feel it is necessary to "adapt" to overcome any adversity, generally we are not playing on a level playing field when confronted with this situation. Whether it be automobiles, clothing, steel, etc., the bottom line is this: the laws in other countries do not reflect the laws here in the US. While we in the US have to uphold different standards (i.e., benefits for our workers/labor laws, environmental laws, anti-trust/monopolies, unions, etc.) other countries can many times -- not in all cases mind you -- do as they please. Just because our clothing or cars parts may be made in a different country -- under different standards and laws -- does not mean it's acceptable for IT to suffer the same fate. Maybe a Tariff on offshore IT outsourcing?!? Who knows?
Ultimately, in the end, the cream will float to the top; whoever that may be.
jdepsft
Member
BOK,
If you think Indians are not educated and you have to clean up their mess then check this URL :-
http://www.indianembassy.org/indusrel/clinton_india/india_americans.html
Get your facts clear, Grow up !!
jdepsft.
If you think Indians are not educated and you have to clean up their mess then check this URL :-
http://www.indianembassy.org/indusrel/clinton_india/india_americans.html
Get your facts clear, Grow up !!
jdepsft.
sperkins
Active Member
Very interesting thread this and I thought a view from this side of the pond
may be of interest. We have had offshoring for a number of years now, and
some interesting things have come to light.
1. The sub-continent workers haven't destroyed the IT market place for
other, more highly paid, people based in the UK.
2. Those companies using offshore tend to find that a good part of the work
needs to be done 'onshore' at a premium rate, usually higher than they would
expect to pay for bringing their own consultants in. Sprat and mackerel we
call it over here.
3. Even the largest and most successful offshore companies are only winning
a very tiny portion of the available work.
4. Companies using offshore often have to bring in onshore consultants to
finish off the job or repair the problems caused by offshore workers. In
the UK that also applies in some cases to other European nationals.
5. Our government is about to change the visa regulations to allow
sub-continent IT staff to get jobs here easier. With so many 'mature' IT
workers already scrabbling for crumbs, often without success, life will get
a lot tougher.
6. The UK is a very ageist culture in almost every industry. This is mainly
led by 'thrusting HR types who assume an importance greatly in excess of
their true worth to an organisation. When item 5 becomes a reality many
workers in the UK will be condemned to 'live' on state benefits for the rest
of their lives. It's the policy of madness from a loony government that
claims we should all work until we're at least 70-75! Try getting a decent
job over here when you reach 50 is extremely hard.. The UK market certainly
does not subscribe to the JDE ethos of 'Grey hair is good'.
7. Market forces is another way of saying, please the shareholders and
reduce costs at almost any cost, and the UK is no different to any other
free economy in that respect. The fact is though, most organisations will
pay for quality but they don't always get it and that is where the real
danger from offshoring lies. We independent guys/gals have to make sure we
are the 'mutts nuts' or we won't survive, and perhaps some of us don't
deserve to.
8. We are still doing very nicely thankyou despite the increase of work
flowing to the sub-continent, mainly because they are selling something they
don't have, expertise, local knowledge and a good grasp of the realities of
life in the western economies. That will obviously change in time, but for
now I predict they some way to go before becoming a major threat to us.
9. During my 5 years of working with this product and daily visits to this
forum I have been astounded by the very basic level of some of the questions
posed. In the UK we have a phrase for responding to such low level
requests for information or help, it's RTFM. I suggest that is a more
appropriate way to deal with those who obviously haven't been properly
trained and are out to suck the lifeblood out of those who have.
So, to encapsulate: Offshore isn't really the major threat some perceive it
to be. We certainly shouldn't be providing knowledge transfer for low level
enquiries that demonstrate a basic lack of understanding or training.
There, I've probably said too much but hope you all have an enjoyable
weekend. The weather here is great and I'm off to enjoy some of it. Peace
to you all fellow Listers.
regards
Sid Perkins
Independent Consultant
Mobile: 07713158807
[email protected]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andy_Klee7" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, September 19, 2003 7:05 PM
Subject: RE: Offshoring
else.
you
http://www.jdelist.com/ubb/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=OW&Number=61558
messages, login to http://www.jdelist.com/forums, click Control Panel, then
click Edit by "Subscribe / Unsubscribe from receiving board posts by email,
change message notifications, etc." and adjust your subscription
preferences. JDEList is not affiliated with JDEdwards®
may be of interest. We have had offshoring for a number of years now, and
some interesting things have come to light.
1. The sub-continent workers haven't destroyed the IT market place for
other, more highly paid, people based in the UK.
2. Those companies using offshore tend to find that a good part of the work
needs to be done 'onshore' at a premium rate, usually higher than they would
expect to pay for bringing their own consultants in. Sprat and mackerel we
call it over here.
3. Even the largest and most successful offshore companies are only winning
a very tiny portion of the available work.
4. Companies using offshore often have to bring in onshore consultants to
finish off the job or repair the problems caused by offshore workers. In
the UK that also applies in some cases to other European nationals.
5. Our government is about to change the visa regulations to allow
sub-continent IT staff to get jobs here easier. With so many 'mature' IT
workers already scrabbling for crumbs, often without success, life will get
a lot tougher.
6. The UK is a very ageist culture in almost every industry. This is mainly
led by 'thrusting HR types who assume an importance greatly in excess of
their true worth to an organisation. When item 5 becomes a reality many
workers in the UK will be condemned to 'live' on state benefits for the rest
of their lives. It's the policy of madness from a loony government that
claims we should all work until we're at least 70-75! Try getting a decent
job over here when you reach 50 is extremely hard.. The UK market certainly
does not subscribe to the JDE ethos of 'Grey hair is good'.
7. Market forces is another way of saying, please the shareholders and
reduce costs at almost any cost, and the UK is no different to any other
free economy in that respect. The fact is though, most organisations will
pay for quality but they don't always get it and that is where the real
danger from offshoring lies. We independent guys/gals have to make sure we
are the 'mutts nuts' or we won't survive, and perhaps some of us don't
deserve to.
8. We are still doing very nicely thankyou despite the increase of work
flowing to the sub-continent, mainly because they are selling something they
don't have, expertise, local knowledge and a good grasp of the realities of
life in the western economies. That will obviously change in time, but for
now I predict they some way to go before becoming a major threat to us.
9. During my 5 years of working with this product and daily visits to this
forum I have been astounded by the very basic level of some of the questions
posed. In the UK we have a phrase for responding to such low level
requests for information or help, it's RTFM. I suggest that is a more
appropriate way to deal with those who obviously haven't been properly
trained and are out to suck the lifeblood out of those who have.
So, to encapsulate: Offshore isn't really the major threat some perceive it
to be. We certainly shouldn't be providing knowledge transfer for low level
enquiries that demonstrate a basic lack of understanding or training.
There, I've probably said too much but hope you all have an enjoyable
weekend. The weather here is great and I'm off to enjoy some of it. Peace
to you all fellow Listers.
regards
Sid Perkins
Independent Consultant
Mobile: 07713158807
[email protected]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andy_Klee7" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, September 19, 2003 7:05 PM
Subject: RE: Offshoring
else.
you
http://www.jdelist.com/ubb/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=OW&Number=61558
messages, login to http://www.jdelist.com/forums, click Control Panel, then
click Edit by "Subscribe / Unsubscribe from receiving board posts by email,
change message notifications, etc." and adjust your subscription
preferences. JDEList is not affiliated with JDEdwards®
got_to_love_jde
Reputable Poster
Re: RE: Offshoring
Mike,
You make some good points. Maybe a tarrif on IT services is a good start.
And also I don't think people from India will understand the 'cream will float to the top' euphuism (I think I spelled that word correctly). People from elsewhere may not be able understand your point........Which is the The Point.
If you can't don't understand how we talk and the references we make, how can you effectively do a project without extra effort on our part ?
Dave
Mike,
You make some good points. Maybe a tarrif on IT services is a good start.
And also I don't think people from India will understand the 'cream will float to the top' euphuism (I think I spelled that word correctly). People from elsewhere may not be able understand your point........Which is the The Point.
If you can't don't understand how we talk and the references we make, how can you effectively do a project without extra effort on our part ?
Dave
Pon
Well Known Member
One other observation: It's very cowardly to create a new list Username and start throwing around insults.
altquark
Legendary Poster
ok - I have kept quiet for a while, reading (and fuming) and this thread, knowing that what I might post might come back to haunt me in the future !
As most of you know, I am an immigrant to the US - I married an American Citizen and moved to Denver from the UK with JDE many years ago - so although I might not have originated from a 3rd world country, I certainly am an immigrant to the US soil. But I do have some strong feelings concerning this subject - especially seeing large numbers of consultants temporarily move to the US for a specific project - and sending the money they make overseas, without wanting to even attempt to move to the US.
Those people who are in a similar situation to myself, I salute and support. I believe strongly that the US and European economies were built on the backs of hard working immigrants who have contributed to the culture of the country they choose to live.
But there are a number of outsourced companies who do not operate in this manner - but instead use developers offshore to perform the work.
In the past year I have indeed seen a large amount of "outsourcing" being performed with Indian software development organizations - much, much more so than in the past, and it has me worried for a number of reasons, which I would like to share here.
I have lost a lot of work in the past to indian consultancy practices - and every loss has been attributed to purely cost. Now, while I am certainly in favour of a capitalist driven society, it worries me that many of these organizations undercut SO dramatically that it becomes impossible to compete - so I performed some research to discover exactly why these companies can charge what they want.
The largest factor to outsourcing to an offshore company is loss of liability. If you decide as a company to outsource to some consultants for $25 an hour - if the work is not performed on US soil, then liability for bad work is waived. In effect, if they do something unethical - who do you sue ?
A consultant from india or china is charging a rate that is comfortable within their own economy - all expenses that the consultant might have for their cost of living is determined by their local currency and economy - hence $40,000 a year is a VERY low rate for an American based consultant - but is a very HIGH rate for an Indian consultant.
Heres a question - if a JDE developer in the US is charging $80 per hour - why would the Indian developer NEED to reduce their rate to $20 per hour ? Why not drop to, say $50 or $60 an hour ? They're still cheaper and it is certaily a higher rate than the average salary in India.
The reason for the dramatic price differences are because of the following facts :
1. India (or China) has a new development industry - this industry is less than 5 years old, and is being promoted in a similar vein to the Textile and Manufacturing industries
2. Both countries have a dramatically lower cost of living
3. Both countries do not have a similar legal system to Europe or the US
4. Both countries do not have a minimum wage system similar to Europe or the US
5. Both countries do not protect individual workers with compensation based on injury or other minimal requirements that the US and Europe have
6. India is an emerging economy and the individuals often do not have the experience of running US corporations. Tax and GAAP laws are different - Finance is different, Banking is different.
7. Most of the issues regarding outsourced company implementations are not because of the knowledge of the outsourcee - but instead is the communication issues. Trying to teach a developer that has never seen a US Picking Warehouse is far more difficult.
8. The average US developers salary is probably in the $50,000 to $60,000 per year range - the average salary for the same person in India is $10,000 - and, hold on to your wallets, the average salary for a Chinese developer is $1,000 per year. Believe me, when China enters the picture, rates could tumble below minimum wage.
So why pay more than, say, $10 per hour for a developer whereas a company could obtain the same skill for $5 an hour.
Where does the insanity end regarding rates ? Cheaper skills are one thing - but outsourcing services to the point where it devalues the product internally is another.
So - heres the issue. Sure, by outsourcing your development, management and implementation expertise - you get a lot more "bang" for your buck - but remember, who do you sue when it goes wrong ? Who exactly are you affecting by making the change in rate ? What economy are you affecting ?
I personally believe that development is certainly one skillset that, due to the internet, has been able to be outsourced. But over the coming years, the number of MBA's in India will also mean that general personnel management will become the next outsourced industry.
CEO's will always go for lower costs - just make sure you're not setting yourself up for the next cut...
It is important for world powers such as Europe and the US to outsource and share the wealth with 3rd world countries - but do not reduce your own living style to accomodate a cheaper resource - slavery was eradicated for similar reasons.
Remember that if something goes wrong, you have no ability to obtain compensation unless the work is performed on US or European soil.
Do not forget Brooks law - Adding manpower to a late software project makes it later (http://everything2.org/index.pl?node_id=436881&lastnode_id=124)
Lastly, if you're a software company thinking about outsourcing - or an ASP thinking about outsourcing your development - remember that the outsourcee has access to all your customers information. What exactly is going to prevent them from assimilating your customer directly at a further reduced rate ?
For a great thread on the advantages and disadvantages of outsourcing - check out http://slashdot.org/askslashdot/00/09/07/1613204.shtml
As most of you know, I am an immigrant to the US - I married an American Citizen and moved to Denver from the UK with JDE many years ago - so although I might not have originated from a 3rd world country, I certainly am an immigrant to the US soil. But I do have some strong feelings concerning this subject - especially seeing large numbers of consultants temporarily move to the US for a specific project - and sending the money they make overseas, without wanting to even attempt to move to the US.
Those people who are in a similar situation to myself, I salute and support. I believe strongly that the US and European economies were built on the backs of hard working immigrants who have contributed to the culture of the country they choose to live.
But there are a number of outsourced companies who do not operate in this manner - but instead use developers offshore to perform the work.
In the past year I have indeed seen a large amount of "outsourcing" being performed with Indian software development organizations - much, much more so than in the past, and it has me worried for a number of reasons, which I would like to share here.
I have lost a lot of work in the past to indian consultancy practices - and every loss has been attributed to purely cost. Now, while I am certainly in favour of a capitalist driven society, it worries me that many of these organizations undercut SO dramatically that it becomes impossible to compete - so I performed some research to discover exactly why these companies can charge what they want.
The largest factor to outsourcing to an offshore company is loss of liability. If you decide as a company to outsource to some consultants for $25 an hour - if the work is not performed on US soil, then liability for bad work is waived. In effect, if they do something unethical - who do you sue ?
A consultant from india or china is charging a rate that is comfortable within their own economy - all expenses that the consultant might have for their cost of living is determined by their local currency and economy - hence $40,000 a year is a VERY low rate for an American based consultant - but is a very HIGH rate for an Indian consultant.
Heres a question - if a JDE developer in the US is charging $80 per hour - why would the Indian developer NEED to reduce their rate to $20 per hour ? Why not drop to, say $50 or $60 an hour ? They're still cheaper and it is certaily a higher rate than the average salary in India.
The reason for the dramatic price differences are because of the following facts :
1. India (or China) has a new development industry - this industry is less than 5 years old, and is being promoted in a similar vein to the Textile and Manufacturing industries
2. Both countries have a dramatically lower cost of living
3. Both countries do not have a similar legal system to Europe or the US
4. Both countries do not have a minimum wage system similar to Europe or the US
5. Both countries do not protect individual workers with compensation based on injury or other minimal requirements that the US and Europe have
6. India is an emerging economy and the individuals often do not have the experience of running US corporations. Tax and GAAP laws are different - Finance is different, Banking is different.
7. Most of the issues regarding outsourced company implementations are not because of the knowledge of the outsourcee - but instead is the communication issues. Trying to teach a developer that has never seen a US Picking Warehouse is far more difficult.
8. The average US developers salary is probably in the $50,000 to $60,000 per year range - the average salary for the same person in India is $10,000 - and, hold on to your wallets, the average salary for a Chinese developer is $1,000 per year. Believe me, when China enters the picture, rates could tumble below minimum wage.
So why pay more than, say, $10 per hour for a developer whereas a company could obtain the same skill for $5 an hour.
Where does the insanity end regarding rates ? Cheaper skills are one thing - but outsourcing services to the point where it devalues the product internally is another.
So - heres the issue. Sure, by outsourcing your development, management and implementation expertise - you get a lot more "bang" for your buck - but remember, who do you sue when it goes wrong ? Who exactly are you affecting by making the change in rate ? What economy are you affecting ?
I personally believe that development is certainly one skillset that, due to the internet, has been able to be outsourced. But over the coming years, the number of MBA's in India will also mean that general personnel management will become the next outsourced industry.
CEO's will always go for lower costs - just make sure you're not setting yourself up for the next cut...
It is important for world powers such as Europe and the US to outsource and share the wealth with 3rd world countries - but do not reduce your own living style to accomodate a cheaper resource - slavery was eradicated for similar reasons.
Remember that if something goes wrong, you have no ability to obtain compensation unless the work is performed on US or European soil.
Do not forget Brooks law - Adding manpower to a late software project makes it later (http://everything2.org/index.pl?node_id=436881&lastnode_id=124)
Lastly, if you're a software company thinking about outsourcing - or an ASP thinking about outsourcing your development - remember that the outsourcee has access to all your customers information. What exactly is going to prevent them from assimilating your customer directly at a further reduced rate ?
For a great thread on the advantages and disadvantages of outsourcing - check out http://slashdot.org/askslashdot/00/09/07/1613204.shtml
brother_of_karamazov
Legendary Poster
"If you think Indians are not educated and you have to clean up their mess..."
I think that you will find that nowhere did I state or even imply that Indians are not educated and that I need to clean up their mess.
"Get your facts clear, Grow up !! "
I would recommend that you reread *my* postings, get *your* facts straight and then try again. Maybe when you can reply in an accurate fashion I can address you. Also, as the moderator stated, let's try to keep this on an adult level and leave the childish taunts to children.
Let's compete- but first let's level the playing field by eliminating the slave labor that bolsters India's economy.
I think that you will find that nowhere did I state or even imply that Indians are not educated and that I need to clean up their mess.
"Get your facts clear, Grow up !! "
I would recommend that you reread *my* postings, get *your* facts straight and then try again. Maybe when you can reply in an accurate fashion I can address you. Also, as the moderator stated, let's try to keep this on an adult level and leave the childish taunts to children.
Let's compete- but first let's level the playing field by eliminating the slave labor that bolsters India's economy.
