Upgrade from 8.12 to 9.00

gigi

gigi

VIP Member
Hi all,
I wish to know your experience about upgrade from E1 8.12 to E1 9.00. Why do customer must be upgrade to 9 version? Which are benefits?
Are there any technology, functional or license benefits?
thanks, regards
gg
 
Hi gigi,

I'll start...

If your paying support:

1. Use it to upgrade, you've paid for it.
2. To be on current supported version and platform (8.12 premier support would end April 2011; extended support after this --see 1064056.1).
3. It has more features, enhancements and hopefully less bugs (crossing my fingers
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).
4. Due to new business requirements, management wants to upgrade to new version.
5. Bragging rights.

If not paying for support anymore, then I don't think there's a need.

Hope others will join.
 
If you don't see any functional advantage to go from 8.12 to 9.0 - then don't go. Technically, they run the same toolset so it's unlikely that there is going to be much of a technical advantage, at least until the next release of E1.

I've written a lot of presentations about pre-analysis of an upgrade, and how important the first steps are prior to any installation of the software - business ROI is key on any upgrade, if there is no possible way to wring some return on the investment for the upgrade, then you absolutely shouldn't do it.

As for support being dropped - that isn't a major reason to be upgraded. Only primary support is dropped - ie, bug fixes and enhancement to functionality. Once you've been live and stable for a number of years, the supposition is that you don't need that level of support - since you'd be relatively stable. You'd still be supported as part of your maintenance agreement - so if something goes wrong, oracle would absolutely support you.

I've heard some inklings about 9.1 or whatever they're calling the next version. In my opinion, there is going to be some MAJOR changes and very, very interesting technical tools available in the next release including "virtual UBE queues" which we've all been long awaiting for....

So, if you're happy on 8.11 or 8.12, and 9.0 functionality isn't important to you, then stay stable and save your money for the next upgrade.

BUT if you're on any version prior to 8.11, then you definitely should consider an upgrade due to the technical advantages...
 
Just posting, because I don't really know (and, I'm trying get to my 2000th JDEList Post):

What is the support cost, the payment to bOrgacle, as organizations fall behind. I read that customers pay enhanced support costs for each revision that fall behind 'whatever' is current - but, I have no idea what those dollars actually are.

That said - is the dollar difference(being remiss vs being current) sufficient to make an upgrade feasible (again, ROI)....

(db)
 
Buon pomeriggio Luigi,

I'll side with Jon on this one. We are running 8.12 for our Europe instance, 9.0 for our Mexico instance. I don't really see a heck of a lot of difference between the two.

Our other instances are on XE, so we have an active plan in place to bring them up to 9.0. Eventually we will upgrade Europe, but it's not a priority.

- Gregg
 
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What is the support cost, the payment to bOrgacle, as organizations fall behind. I read that customers pay enhanced support costs for each revision that fall behind 'whatever' is current - but, I have no idea what those dollars actually are.

That said - is the dollar difference(being remiss vs being current) sufficient to make an upgrade feasible (again, ROI)....

(db)

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Usually, maintenance is approximately 18% of the purchase price of the software, payable year after year.

Therefore, within 5 years, a company has paid the equivalent of the initial price of the software.

Now, here is the kicker, the maintenance cost is a % of the RETAIL price - and the customer usually gets a substantial discount of the original software cost.

SO, if a company can get stable on their software, and believes that they won't upgrade/change their functionality for at least 5 years, then it's worth them dropping maintenance.

BUT - the majority of customers aren't 100% stable, and aren't 100% rolled out - plus, of course, most businesses change in that many years. Secondly, hardware support might very well expire towards the end of the 5 years, and dropping maintenance prevents customers upgrading the toolset.

My experience is that oracle charges back-maintenance to get a customer back onto maintenance - but obviously after years 4 or 5, it's worth just negotiating a new price for the new software.
 
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My experience is that oracle charges back-maintenance to get a customer back onto maintenance....

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Or, you can go out and buy an Exadata or two. From what I hear, they fall all over you when you buy a couple of those bad boys....
 
Dropping Maintenance means you don't get the Annual Updates (tax, payroll, gov. requirements...)....

I had understood that someone on XE pays more on support (premium), than someone on 8.11 (also, premium). That was the meat of the question -

How much more does an organization on one version pay than an organization (of similar size) on a newer version....

(db)
 
[ QUOTE ]

I had understood that someone on XE pays more on support (premium), than someone on 8.11 (also, premium). That was the meat of the question -

How much more does an organization on one version pay than an organization (of similar size) on a newer version....


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Not sure where you got this info from, but from someone in the pricing department, that absolutely wouldn't make sense unless oracle INCREASED maintenance over time.

XE was a lot less in 1997 than EnterpriseOne costs today. The difference is that oracle publishes the "retail" pricing openly. Maintenance has never really been negotiable - anyone who has negotiated a contract can point that out - and maintenance is always a percentage of the original retail price. However, that percentage has definitely crept up since oracle purchased PeopleSoft - much as 21% someone told me ??!

So, no, a customer who originally bought XE from JDE in 2000, providing they didn't have to either add functionality or change their licensing will be paying less for maintenance than oracle charges an EnterpriseOne customer today.

Lastly, as for the data updates - those can always be manually entered by the customer...just because a customer is off maintenance, doesn't mean they cannot use the product...
 
Thank you all for you're replies. I don't see any "real" reason to leverage my customer to migrate form 8.12 to 9.00. Only reason should be business reason, for example if I have a fashon customer on 8.12 (or older) It could migrate to 9.00 to implement Apparel module.
I don't understand very well any benefit regarding support cost.
Buona giornata a tutti
gg
 
Jon,

Yes - it is obvious that I do not get involved in Oracle Support Agreements.

However, Oracle's presentations qualify that:
- there is Standard Support (for version of JDE that are current)
- there is Premium Support (for versions of JDE that no longer qualify for Standard Support)

XE, as I understand, falls into the category of Premium Support. That said, how much more is Premium Support, than Standard Support?

(db)
 
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Only reason should be business reason, for example if I have a fashion customer on 8.12 (or older) It could migrate to 9.00 to implement Apparel module.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bingo ! (or whatever you call out on Lotto in Italy !) You just summarized it exactly. There are a few very specialized functionality changes in 9.0 - and it is only those enhancements you should look at, and evaluate whether it is worth the ROI to undertake an upgrade.

Too many companies that fail to evaluate the product correctly result in a failed ROI and ultimately a failed upgrade implementation. I'm just trying to provide my 2c to help those customers go through a needless upgrade exercise if possible.

Believe me, though, Software Companies LOVE to sell you more software, and Service Companies LOVE to sell you services ! Always ensure you have an understanding on what that investment will net you in the long term....
 
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Jon,

Yes - it is obvious that I do not get involved in Oracle Support Agreements.

However, Oracle's presentations qualify that:
- there is Standard Support (for version of JDE that are current)
- there is Premium Support (for versions of JDE that no longer qualify for Standard Support)

XE, as I understand, falls into the category of Premium Support. That said, how much more is Premium Support, than Standard Support?

(db)

[/ QUOTE ]

First of all, you're wrong about XE's support category. Until 2013, which is 10 years after Oracles takeover of Peoplesoft/JDE, XE is under support. There is no "better" support - XE will be enhanced by platform support (ie tools releases) as well as ESU's. Oracle resents this - but it is a contractual obligation to ensure continual support of an existing product line.

That is why XE is under the same support as, say, 8.12 or 9.0 right now - as opposed to, say 8.10 or 8.9.

There is no difference in maintenance payments of an older product. Oracle theoretically continues to take the same maintenance price from their 8.9 customers as they do their B7332 customers and 9.0 customers. The only difference was that more recently, Oracle increased maintenance costs across the board - and any customer needing a license modification, ends up being moved to the new licensing model (and hence the new maintenance cost model).

Its complicated to explain in one sentance, so I'm going to provide two examples.

Example 1 is a company who has 200 concurrent licenses. They purchased OneWorld Xe in 2000 for the retail price of, say, $800,000. They have been paying maintenance every year of $136,000. After 11 years, they have paid a total of $1,496,000 in maintenance payments. They decide to upgrade to 9.0. Eliminating the whole redstack/bluestack conundrum - they pay $0 to Oracle, because they don't have any licensing issues and they're current on maintenance. After their upgrade, they continue to pay $136,000 a year in maintenance....

Example 2 is a company who has 200 concurrent licenses of XE, but they wish to roll out additional functionality that 9.0 has to new users. This company bought XE for $800,000 and have also been paying maintenance every year. But Oracle now doesn't have any concurrent licensing model, so they perform an audit. The company squeaks by the named licensing count of, say, 400 - but to roll out, they're going to need an additional 100 named licenses. So, they pony up an additional $200,000. Lets say this then also results in them getting redstack (as a bonus). So the company then goes ahead and upgrades. At the end of the upgrade, on 9.0 - the company now pays about $220,000 in maintenance a year..

I think that explains things pretty well.

There is no difference between "standard" and "premium" support on price. The difference is that "standard" support only provides bug-fixes to existing software at existing technical requirement levels. Premium support provides enhancements, bug fixes and new platform support. Both support options provide the data support (tax and governance etc) - though these can be manually entered if necessary, or can be derived from 3rd party (such as vertex).

Now, there USED to be "Bronze, Silver and Gold" support levels when JDE was around. Pretty much there was a difference in the quality of support between Bronze and Gold. Mostly in the way you were treated over the phone. The minimum was "Bronze" - which I told companies to get back in the late '90's and early '00's (I have some posts on the subject WAAAY back when) and use the difference in price to pay for a good consultant AND to save money ! Ah, the heady good-old-days of JDE !

I might be wrong - but that is the experience I've had from other customers - but its a shady, shady world, and support contracts are often very long, arduous affairs, and most companies prefer to keep their support contracts very quiet...
 
Doing a quick review of the following documents (oracle's):
http://www.oracle.com/us/support/library/057419.pdf
http://www.oracle.com/us/support/library/lsp-apps-chart-069285.pdf

Based on the second link, there is 'Support(Premier)', 'Extended Support' and 'Sustaining Support'. From a Business Aspect, I would expect Mr. Larry to charge more for Extended and Sustaining. Since identical configurations can have completely individualized (and monetized) support agreements - we could never 'really' identify what the cost differences are between columns/levels within the support matrix.

One would be wise to review the matrix - when making the suggestions to clients, and make them fully aware of when each level concludes.

(db)
 
We're on 8.12 and have decided to go on extended support to wait for 9.1. According to my rep, it will be an additional 10% year one, and 20% year two and three. I can verify that I just got the bill for the first year and it is 10% of my annual maintenance, prorated for the partial year starting May 1st.
Pam
 
Yes. Thankyou for the links - I hadn't seen the latest documents. They do underline what I stated, that "Premier", "Extended" and "Sustaining" relate to how the product is supported in its lifetime. It also specifically states "JD Edwards EnterpriseOne Release Xe and Release 8 will receive Premier Support until Dec 2013" whereas 8.12 Premier Support concludes in April 2011 (next month !) and Extended Support ends in April 2014.

For World customers, Premier support ends on December 2013 for A7.3 and A8.1 - but A9.1 it ends on April 2012 !

However, I hadn't heard of "Priority Service" or "Priority Service Desk" - which in effect, prioritizes service requests above the regular service. These levels are certainly an additional cost (though I have no idea what additional cost that would be).

The difference seems to be a 1 hour response to sev.1 issues, and 2.5 hour response to sev.2 issues. However, I know for a fact that most of my issues when logged with Oracle are absolutely responded to within 1-2 hours, and I'm positive that the customers I've placed calls with haven't had "priority" service.

Its all convoluted. I'm glad that Oracle is publishing all this information - and its good to pull it out into the open to discuss.

If you want to see the price list - including the cost of support and updates (note that this doesn't have "priority" support for E1) - the retail price list is located at :

http://www.oracle.com/us/corporate/pricing/jd-edwards-price-list-070607.pdf

It's still cheaper than SAP...by a LOT !


Again, these are due to the contractual obligations of the Peoplesoft takeover.

Lastly, it still doesn't stop Oracle from telling customers "you need to upgrade" on certain issues (though that doesn't happen anywhere near as much as it used to !)
 
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According to my rep, it will be an additional 10% year one, and 20% year two and three. I can verify that I just got the bill for the first year and it is 10% of my annual maintenance, prorated for the partial year starting May 1st.


[/ QUOTE ]

Thankyou Pam - so when XE finally drops out of Premium Support in 2013, then XE customers will need to pay an increase of 10%, and 20% for years 2 and 3 after that. I guess year's 4+ it could be anyones guess !

I find it interesting that to get BACK onto maintenance, a customer just has to pay 150% of their final maintenance bill (as per Dans' first link). So, in my example, if a customer bought JDE for $800,000, paid for 2 years maintenance until the Peoplesoft takeover ($272,000) and then dropped maintenance for 11 years, when they decide in 2013 to upgrade to 9.1, Oracle will charge them $204,000 to get back up-to-date and this allows them to then go through the upgrade...! Thats a total outlay of $1,276,000 - whereas if they had stuck with maintenance over 13 years, they'd have paid $2,568,000 !!!!! Thats TWICE as much for being a loyal customer !

Seems the best way to save $$$ over time, according to the pricing structure, is to get stable QUICK, and then drop maintenance (!)

Of course, I know your mileage will vary greatly...
 
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Just posting, because I don't really know (and, I'm trying get to my 2000th JDEList Post)

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Despite the fact that you may have your eyes set on the Grand Prize...there are no prizes Don. I could not believe your comment when I read what you wrote.
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I do not think I have ever heard any other of my esteemed colleagues boldly going for numbers...and am sure that I won't.
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